Hobby capital gains, collectibles, etc

Scenario:

Some items of tangible personal property, purchased new for personal use may, over many years' time, become worth more than the purchase price -- think comic books, vinyl records, or automobiles. Assume that at the time these items were acquired, they were ordinary consumer (consumable) commodities (meaning, the quantities available for purchase were not limited, and it was common for them to be used, worn out, and disposed).

Further assume that the acquisition, use, and storage of these items is connected to a hobby. (I suppose almost any activity that is not a trade or business can be considered a hobby).

Questions:

1) Hobby capital gain income vs. hobby losses

Given a hobby activity also involving the sale of items such as those mentioned above, with no office-in-home (OIH) or depreciation expenses, are the following statements correct? I think so.

a) These items are not hobby COGS (cost of goods sold) because they were not originally purchased as stock-in-trade, but rather for personal use. The fact that such items are typically held for twenty years or more strongly supports this conclusion.

b) Therefore, the gains from sale, if any, are capital gains, and are also included in gross hobby income (losses are personal losses, and not allowed for tax purposes). Hobby expenses that are not direct expenses of sale can be used to offset such income as a miscellaneous itemized deduction on Schedule A, subject to 2%-of-AGI limitation. (The direct expenses of sale would already be included on Schedule D when calculating capital gain).

Example: a vinyl record is purchased new in 1979 for $6, then played intermittently and stored. In 2009, record-cleaning equipment, a new stylus, and a price guide are purchased to determine the condition and value of this record and others like it (indirect hobby expenses). The record is subsequently sold via a web site for $15, less Paypal fees, shipping materials, and postage (direct costs) totaling $4. A long-term capital gain of $5 [$15 - $6 - $4] is reported on Schedule D, and indirect hobby expenses up to $5 are deductible on Schedule A misc-subject-2%-AGI section.

c) Most if not all tax software, as well as the IRS, expect the Schedule A misc-2%-AGI deduction for hobby losses to not exceed the Form

1040 line 21 hobby income, yet the correct treatment should be to include hobby-related capital gains from Schedule D as well as line 21 amounts when determining the limit for hobby loss deductions, as in the example above.

In other words, most tax software will NOT correctly handle the example above, and the IRS may have unjustified heartburn over it too.

2) When does it become a "collectible"?

When sold by the original purchaser, would such items (comic books, vinyl records, automobiles) be subject to the special maximum capital gains rate for collectibles? I think not (see IRC §408(m)(2) for definition of collectible).

Contrast with the purchaser of such used items, in his hands is it now a collectible for tax purposes? I think so, but can't find where this is written down in any code, regulation, or procedure.

-Mark Bole

Reply to
Mark Bole
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Agree.

This is consistent with Regulation 1.183-1(e) and the IRS's own audit guide on Section 183.

I don't believe there is any tax software that looks at misc. deductions and tries to match it to Line 21 hobby income. Not all deductions for hobby income are misc. itemized deductions. See Reg. 1.183-1(b). There is an ordering rule. I can't speak for the IRS, but even their audit guide on this issue highlights the fact that income includes capital gain and rents and deductions are in different sections of the Schedule A.

Section 1(h) points to Sec. 408(m) for the definition. Sec. 408(m) does not include the items in question. Here is the section. (2) Collectible defined For purposes of this subsection, the term ''collectible'' means - (A) any work of art, (B) any rug or antique, (C) any metal or gem, (D) any stamp or coin, (E) any alcoholic beverage, or (F) any other tangible personal property specified by the Secretary for purposes of this subsection.

Clause F opens the definition to any other item that the Treasury wants to include. The only thing I have found is a 1984 proposed regulation: EE-148-81, IRS 1984-1 C.B. 580. Note that it adds musical instruments and historical objects.

§1.408-10 Investment in collectibles.

(a) In general. The acquisition by an individual retirement account or by an individually-directed account under a plan described in section

401(a) of any collectible shall be treated (for purposes of section 402 and 408) as a distribution from such account in an amount equal to the cost to such account of such collectible.

(b) Collectible defined. For purposes of this section, the term ?collectible? means?

(1) Any work or art, (2) Any rug or antique, (3) Any metal or gem, (4) Any stamp or coin, (5) Any alcoholic beverage, (6) Any musical instrument, (7) Any historical objects (documents, clothes, etc.), or (8) Any other tangible personal property which the Commissioner determines is a ?collectible? for purposes of this section.

Item 7 is pretty broad. In your example one might construe that vinyl records, comic books and automobiles could meet that definition. In addition, I am not sure that when an item is purchased or what the motivation is at the time of purchase has any bearing. All of the referenced items could become a collectible after the fact.

This still leaves open the issue as to whether the proposed regulation has any legal standing as it was never formally adopted. I think not. Therefore, I would rely upon the current set of items in Section 408(m).

See above comments.

Reply to
Alan
[Big Snip]

I should have added that I did search for various IRS documents on this issue and found nothing that expands the definition. Pub 590 still includes the clause that says "certain other tangible personal property." The IRS Retirement News for Employers highlighted this issue in the Spring of 2005 and also included the above phrase. However, the Fall 2009 letter on this issue dropped that phrase.

Reply to
Alan

Comic books sounds like (A) work of art to me.

Reply to
removeps-groups

If it wasn't that when it was produced, does it retroactively turn into that later? (E.g. in the 1940's, the claim that a comic book was "art" would have garnered laughter.)

Seth

Reply to
Seth

Turns out that Turbotax actually does, via its interview process (and the underlying worksheet).

Intuit's Proseries software does not do so, however. So maybe it's not common after all, at least not in professional-level products.

-Mark Bole

Reply to
Mark Bole

The original hand-drawn panels could easily be considered art, just like cels from an animated movie, for example. But tens or hundreds of thousands of cheap reproductions? (the actual printed comic books).

Sounds like there is a lot of room for court cases over the issue, if and when it comes to that. My take is that in the layman's world, not the tax world, "collectible" has much more to do with the scarcity of an item rather than its intrinsic nature, as even the most mundane daily objects can be "collectibles" under the right circumstances. (singer Michael Jackson's underwear, maybe?)

Or

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-Mark Bole

Reply to
Mark Bole

The fact that it was preserved for so long means to me that it has changed from a commidity into a collectible. As such the 28% rate applies. The same reasoning only applies to vinyl records if they were preserved as such; but if they were used as a commodity (ie. for real transport purposes, and for really listening to music on the turntable) then the 15% rate applies. I've not looked at any court cases; just going by common sense as appears to me today -- maybe tomorrow I'll be more or less IRS friendly :).

Reply to
removeps-groups

Please point out where in IRC Sec. 408(m) or its regulations that comic books are a collectible for purposes of IRC Sec. 1 tax rates assuming we agree they are not artwork.

Reply to
Alan

The regulations don't specifically mention comic books as you mentioned. I was just going by my common sense.

Reply to
removeps-groups

Brings to mind the tax discussions concerning a baseball hit for a home run setting a new record.

There was some discussion about maybe the baseball was a "collectible." But memorable sports items, while surely collected by some, did not and do not meet the definiton of collectible, nor has the Secretary deemed them to be.

And current year bullion, certainly not something "collected" is subject to the collectible capital gains rate.

Reply to
Arthur Kamlet

Uh-oh! Danger, Will Robinson!

Reply to
Arthur Kamlet

You mean because someone stuck one up in an attic and nobody looked at it for decades made it a collectible? I think what it was purchased as matters. If it was purchased for $.02 by a kid to read, it clearly wasn't a collectible. The fact that he hid it in a suitcase in his attic to keep it away from his brother doesn't make it one.

Seth

Reply to
Seth

Just what is the definition of "collectible"? I read through some tax court cases, and they seemed to define it as anything that has value other than its intrinsic value.

Reply to
Stuart A. Bronstein

I have no qualifications to judge the correctness of the above state

*for tax purposes*.

But as regards what collectors will do in the real world, I think it's nonsense.

If 50 or 100 years later there are only two or three copies of the item in question still surviving, in suitcases in various attics or anywhere else in the world, this item can definitely become a collectible, and a valued one, with people ("collectors") being willing to pay big bucks for it.

Happens all the time, with all kinds of stuff -- it's the operational definition of "collectible".

Reply to
AES

For purposes of the 28% tax rate, I have already said that Sec. 1 (specificalay 1(h)(5)(A)) points you to Sec. 408(m) without regard to paragraph (3) for the definition of a collectible. The real question is what is the definition of some of the items listed in 408(m). Items such as coins, gems, rugs, alcoholic beverages seem pretty clear. But what is an antique? When does tangible property become an antique? What is a work of art?

This has been adjudicated many times and no doubt some tax research can find a bunch of answers.

Reply to
Alan

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Reply to
Seth

,

I agree (though I do remember an official ruling from Canadian Customs, about some of Vaughn Bode's drawings: "That isn't artwork. That's cartoons.")

Anything that can be collected (beer cans, barbed wire, . . .) is collectible, and anything that can be purchased and kept can be collected.

So: a farmer buys some barbed wire, uses almost all of it for fencing. Many years later, he learns that it was a rare kind and collectors are willing to pay a lot for it, so he sells the remaining

5% of a roll for a lot of money. He clearly purchased it for business use.

Seth

Reply to
Seth

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