PROPOSAL FOR MY MOM FROM PLANNER - REASONABLE?

Hello! I am hoping folks will take pity on a true financial neophyte who is trying to help out his mom. After many years of inaction, my mom finally met with a financial planner who she hit it off with (the fact that the planner was about to give birth may have helped in that regard!). My mom's circumstances aren't dire, but she has a lot of expenses (including a recently aquired $350K mortgage she had to take out to rebuild a vacation home in the family for many years after it was damaged beyond repair a few years back). She is divorced and retired and has a portfolio of about $1.3 million in various assets (75% blue chip stocks, 20% bonds & 5% cash - the mix also includes some mutual funds in an IRA). Her primary home probably has a value in excess of $750K (but encumbered by above-referenced mortgage) and the rebuilt vacation home is probably worth around $500K. After her divorce a number of years back, she realized she needed to be on a more structured budget/financial plan (with better diversification, etc), but she was unable to grab the bull by the horns until now. Her inaction was partially abetted by fact that one of her largest holdings (a financial stock that made up approx 1/3 of her portfolio) was growing by leaps and bounds over the last couple of decades (until the recent setback in financial stocks). So all of that is background for the following proposal, which she received from the afore- mentioned financial planner (i have tried to edit it down a bit, but kept the essentials of what she is proposing):

Investment Recommendations

IRA Funds (approx $250,000 )

Consolidate two IRA accounts by selling and transferring funds to [name of firm]. Invest proceeds in a variable annuity with a guaranteed minimum withdrawal benefit. The account will be invested in a portfolio of mutual fund sub-accounts consistent with moderately conservative risk profile.

Required minimum distributions from annuity for the first three years will be taken from a separate cash account (set up as part of transaction). The amount to be deposited in the account will be $50,000 and will be held in certificates of deposit. Payments will be made each December for three years. During first three years, value of the account will be recorded on the anniversary of the annuity. Guaranteed minimum withdrawal benefit will be based on the highest value recorded each year investment held. Guarantee is for 6% minimum withdrawals and the cost of the rider providing the benefit is .65%. The other cost associated with annuity is the annual .85% mortality and expense fee. There are no charges for transactions, either for initial purchase or when portfolio is re-balanced. An additional feature of contract is 2% bonus to be paid at the initial deposit, based on the total amount deposited. For example, a deposit of $200,000 would mean a $4,000 bonus is paid and the initial principle value is set at $204,000. While invested, 10% of the value plus any gains are always accessible without charge, but the contract cannot be surrendered for a period of ten years without incurring a surrender penalty. Additional details regarding fees and charges as well as available funds and asset allocation models are made available by prospectus and within the account application.

Non_$B!>_(BIRA Assets (approximately $1M)

Transfer individual stocks and bonds at [name of firm] and to managed account at [new firm] under umbrella of 1% annual mangement fee, based on the total balance of the account and billed monthly. The 1% management fee covers any and all transactions and the active management of the portfolio, ongoing. Specific recommendation is to sell individual bonds with long duration/maturity and all individual stocks as they are more risky than necessary to generate income desired over the long term and are inconsistent with your investment objectives. Bonds with short duration will be held until their maturity dates as they have a higher yield and no call features. Total annual yield from the bonds to be retained is approx $6,500. As stocks and bonds are sold, proceeds to be invested as follows: to cover remaining tax payments ($60,000), possible purchase of new car ($45,000) and kitchen remodeling ($20,000), plus cash reserves equal to six monthly payments of regular expenses ($60,000) will be set aside within a brokerage account and invested in CD_$B!G_(Bs and money market funds. Monthly payments of $12,000 will be directly deposited to checking account at local bank on first of each month. There are no fees or charges for maintaining brokerage account for the purpose of holding cash, as long as the total assets at [new firm] exceed $20,000. Cash will be held in a separate account from any managed money, so there will be no 1% fee.

In addition, it is recommended that $300,000 of proceeds from sale of stock be invested in the [private REIT] offered by WP Carey company. This is a private investment offering a regular current distribution of 5.5%. The portfolio is invested in global, diversified real estate properties and income is generated though long term leases. For more specific information regarding portfolio holdings, distributions and a corporate profile, please refer to the prospectus, provided by WP Carey.

Finally, the remaining proceeds (approx $300,000) to be invested in a diversified portfolio of professionally managed mutual funds. These assets will be maintained in the managed account at a fee of 1% and reviewed on a quarterly basis for the purpose of re_$B!>_(Bbalancing and or change of investment objectives.

****end of proposal****

So there it is. Sorry for the length of this - tried to trim it extensively without losing too much of the substance. The numbers may not jibe exactly because they're approximations in some cases, so don't let that bog you down. Thanks for any feedback you can provide about how prudent the proposed course of action may or may not be given my mother's circumstances. Sam

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Reply to
samplogan
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This is where I stopped reading. I have yet to meet a VA that I like, but to put any VA inside an IRA is unconscionable, in my opinion.

Ok, I read a bit more. Putting 30% of the non-IRA funds into one sector, let alone one sprecific REIT is not prudent, not diversified enough for my liking.

A 60/40 mix of a good index fund and intermedite bonds would have a high chance at beating the suggestion the advisor made. I'm sure other will chime in with their thoughts. Joe

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Reply to
joetaxpayer

This right here is an immediate red flag. Any financial planner who proposes investing an IRA in a variable annuity is either incompetent or, more likely, trying to line his pocket. The money is already tax sheltered to putting it in another tax shelter is pointless. And variable annuities have historically astronomical fees. Without even reading the rest of the proposal, I would pass.

Holding individual stocks is unnecessarily risky. I guess I can buy that. But...

Investing 23% of a portfolio in a single, private REIT ISN'T unnecessarily risky? In the wise words of Majel Barrett-Roddenberry, "Insufficient data does not compute."

--Bill

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Reply to
Bill Woessner

Yeah, that makes no sense. Now, converting some of the funds outside a tax-advantaged account to immediate fixed annuities for living expenses can make sense, but certainly not that. If I'm reading the post right, there's a 1.5% expense ratio. The reason advisors suggest them is that most variable annuities provide handsome commissions for the broker.

If you had to go with an VA, something like Vanguard's selection would better, they have much lower ERs.

You still wouldn't want to do that in an IRA.

For the portfolio size, the woman should go to a respected fee-only advisor that isn't going to get working on commission. Or read a few of the fine books out there about investing on your own through no-load, low-fee mutual funds.

That would be simple and effective. She's retired, so 50/50 wouldn't be out of line either. She wouldn't be too bad off with a low-cost target retirement fund for one-stop shopping.

Brian

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Reply to
Default User

Your mother should get a lot more advice from a lot more people before adopting that plan. At the very least, even independent advice from one or two more "financial planners" like the one who recommended the plan you describe would be a good idea. Then, if you observe that those people recommend completely different kinds of products, you can be sure that something is rotten in Denmark and move on to other approaches. Consider, especially, consulting a "fee only" financial advisor who receives no commissions from the products he or she sells. I suspect one of the first pieces of advice you get will be to strike out that annuity. The whole thing you describe smells fishy to me. Get more advice before you act!

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Reply to
Don

Paying someone 1% to invest in mutual funds just stinks, IMO. Funds charge a fee as well - that's two fees! An asset manager should manage the portfolio, not hire a fund to do his job in a wholesale manner - the fund's investments are generic, not tailored to your mother's needs, risk dispositions, and tax sensitivities. Personally, I do not like asset managers. I had one once, for my mother - I took over the management the second I was legally entitled to, and that very day sold three positions in companies that subsequently went bankrupt. I lowered the PE of 30% of the portfolio by 50% while increasing the dividend yield on that portion by 210%. The positions in solid companies with earnings increases, I let sit, or added to, and reduced the number of positions from 60 to under 30. With a $400 a year Value line subscription I did much better than the "manager" (and for free). It was a 'sweater' for six months, then I got it stabilized, and that portfolio is down 1.3% YTD (compared to DJIA down 12%), outperformed last year, and it's tossing off a bit better than 6% yield on cost basis. Some of the weaker companies are Intel, Cisco, United Technologies, Pfizer, while some of the stronger ones are JNJ, McDonalds, Colgate, XOM. Hey - If I can do a "Class "A"" portfolio, so can you! Please be aware that you are not as financially unsophisticated as you seem to believe, or as others may wish you to believe.

One thing not mentioned so far is that $10,000 a month living expenses is quite high for a portfolio of approximately $1.6m especially in these times of historically low interest rates. You are asking for a

7.5% yield. It CAN be done if the portfolio is properly invested in consistent earnings growth companies (above 6%) with decent dividend yields, and a history of increasing their dividends. One of my aunts had a good man working for her, and he gifted half of her portfolio to a solidly funded university in exchange for an 11% "lifetime" annual yield, in addition to a large tax deduction. That guy earned his 1% for my aunt. Someone might suggest a reverse mortgage (I know nothing about them).

You would definitely do best to shop very, very intensively for someone with considerable education, expertise and reputation, who is truly in love with his work and your mother's investments, before handing over 1%. Or go to the library and read Value Line or S&P and stick with companies with very high financial strength and solid earnings. You MUST educate yourself sufficiently to evaluate anyone's plan, as well as proposed stock holdings. .

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Reply to
dapperdobbs

I must compliment you on the thoroughness of your post. You have some other replies, which seem to make sense. I will add my pet peeve: why will you need to pay 1% management fee for $200k sitting in CDs? Ditto, probably, with short term bonds. And, where is this adviser suggesting you draw the line with bonds of "too long" a maturity?

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Reply to
123go

Maybe she should just sell the vacation home. That way her expenses will drop dramatically and her net worth will increase.

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Reply to
PeterL

Peter - I agree on that maybe you mention, only now may not be a good time to sell. A reverse mortgage is a sale, but one that might possibly provide an income stream sufficient to compensate for giving up the house. It would provide some diversification, and possibly less risk than a REIT, since it's selling, not buying. Depending on the real estate market (and the financial crisis) one consideration is to reduce spending as much as possible for the next two years, hopefully realizing appreciation in either sale price or reverse mortgage terms. There will also be some point in the current stock market decline where some very good buying opportunities present themselves. A final consideration is age of the parent, and possibly planning for a retirement community. Short-term investment planning is an oxymoron - "long-term" is the key. Which is where time spent searching for one really good asset manager out of hundreds would pay off. I wonder if you would comment on the above for perspective?

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Reply to
dapperdobbs

Or another possibility would be to rent the vacation home. That way her cash flow would increase while her net worth would stay the same (an very likely increase in the future).

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Reply to
Don

Her expenses may drop, and she'd be more liquid. Her income may rise depending how the proceeds are invested, but her net worth doesn't change. Only her asset allocation changes.

Joe

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Reply to
joetaxpayer

her net worth drops, due to the income tax on sale of the vacation home (depending on basis, etc.).

I think the other poster may have meant her new worth will increase over time, without the added expense of the vacation home. But, that ignores potential increase in its value.

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Reply to
123go

What I really really meant was this. It's not prudent for a retired person to take on a 350K mortgage that constitutes 1/5 of her net worth. By selling her vaction home she would gain liquidity and flexibility, and reduced expenses used to fund that mortgage. Obviously I know nothing about net worth.

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Reply to
PeterL

Thanks so much for the wonderful feedback from everyone. In answer to the question posed about age - my mom's 72 and in good health. Nursing home not in the cards for several years, at least, I would say. As for renting vacation home idea -that is something we've tried to get her to consider, but she hasn't been willing to think of her situation as "dire" enough to have to go that route. This is part of the dilemma faced with this financial planner - she has painted a very rosy cash-flow scenario that will, if it pans out, allow my mom to go forward without having to dramatically modify her lifestyle/budget, etc. I am concerned that it is unrealistic. Of course, the planner stands to make a fairly sizeable amount of compensation right up front as well - if anyone would be able to roughly ballpark what amount of compensation we might be talking about, that would be helpful. Once again, I have really appreciated all the feedback - hopefully it will have a positive impact. Sam

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Reply to
samplogan

Generally speaking a "rosy cash flow" scenario turns out to involve financial products that are far more risky than they are made out to be by the sellers of the products. Often a splendid cash flow for a few years will be accompanied by loss of capital in the long run. Actually, in your mother's case, one sure way of increasing cash flow would be to rent the vacation home. Since she owns it free and clear, expenses would not be too high, and it would most likely bring in more monthly income than would readjusting her holdings in stocks and mutual funds. Your concerns are well founded.

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Reply to
Don

snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote: She is divorced and retired and has a portfolio of about $1.3 million in various assets Her primary home probably has a value in excess of $750K (but encumbered by above-referenced mortgage) and the rebuilt vacation home is probably worth around $500K.

cash reserves equal to six monthly payments of regular expenses ($60,000) will be set aside within a brokerage account and invested in CD_$B!G_(Bs and money market funds. Monthly payments of $12,000 will be directly deposited to checking account at local bank on first of each month.

I replied prior and focussed on the inappropriate purchase of a VA within an IRA, as did others. Now that I see more responses, I saw that your mom's potential advisor is suggesting she can tap a $1.3M portfolio for $120K each year. $133K if you include the 1% fee. This is over 10%. I saw no replies that addressed how this is close to twice the recommended withdrawal rate. I have an 80 year old whom I encourage to spend 5% each year, but she's so focused on the 4% rule that I know she takes the 5% I suggest but puts some away "for a rainy day".

10% withdrawals and a couple more bad years and your mother will have no chance to recover. Did you mention her age in a different post and I missed it? If so, sorry. Joe
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Reply to
joetaxpayer

I disagree with Elle. At her estimate of nursing home costs, Mom can be in a nursing home for perhaps 4 to 5 years simply by selling her vacation home. This is far longer than the typical nursing home stay, and the time would be stretched out even longer if the MRDs were applied to the bill. However, if the stay lasted that long, it would be fairly certain that she would not be returning to her home, so selling that would add another 4 years or so.

BTW, I calculate Mom's net worth as $2.2 million. Perhaps Elle forgot the vacation home.

Dave

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Reply to
Dave Dodson

On Sep 18, 10:42 am, Dave Dodson On long term care insurance etc. at age 72 with a net worth of approx. $2.2 million

Are you saying she should not even investigate long term care insurance?

Your figures assume what the length of the typical nursing home stay is. I do not advise planning for what is typical in this case. She could be in a nursing home for ten years; one just cannot say. While with a $2.2 million net worth, I think it likely she will be okay financially, it is a little close for comfort. This seems particularly so given the ease of investigating long term care insurance. One should also consider that maybe she would rather leave a nice inheritance to her grandkids, and so not bleed down her wealth. Lastly, given the volatility of the market today, the failing housing market, and her age, having so much in stocks and houses seems worth re-evaluating, particularly in light of the possibility she could have, say, a stroke and immediately have to enter long term care.

On the woman's net worth, you are right; I missed the $500k estimated worth of the vacation home.

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Reply to
honda.lioness

To review:

A portfolio of about $1.3 million in various assets $975k = 75% blue chip stocks $260k = 20% bonds & $6.5k = 5% cash

A recently aquired $350K mortgage she had to take out to rebuild a vacation home

You should plug in actual numbers to these estimates: Stock div yld $975k x 2% = $19,000 Bond yld $260k x 4% = $10,400 Gross Income = $29,400 Less: mortgage $350k x 6% = $21,000 Net Income = $8,400 Less: Expenses = $120,000 Annual deficit = ($111,600)

primary home probably has a value in excess of $750K the rebuilt vacation home is probably worth around $500K less: a recently aquired $350K mortgage Net real estate = $1,000k

Total net worth $2.3m with an annual drawdown of about $110,000 is not pretty. Your financial planning must take this into account. Until you get things stabilized, the new car and kitchen remodel is simply foolish.

As for the proposal you have, in addition to everything that has been said, you did not post specific dollar amounts for income. Trying to interpolate, I size it up this way: CD's = $1,100,000 Var Ann = $250,000 That I know of, CD rates = 4% = $44,000 So you have a $250k variable annuity that will throw off $66,000 a year? Interest rates are at all-time lows now, and it is the worst time to commit money to fixed income.

The first thing I would recommend is cutting annual expenses: Even with the $21,000 some odd going out in mortgage, $61,000 should be sufficient for comfortable living expenses, total outflow. If the vacation home is turned from a $21k payment into a reverse mortgage at

6% ($9,000) that would be a $30,000 swing right there.

Net Income = $8,400 + $9,000 = $17,400 Annual expenses = $40,000 Annual deficit = $22,600

With some stock market appreciation factored in, your mother should be able to remain at her present net worth for many years. I did mention a retirement community in my previous post, as others have. The $750k primary residence could be utilized to provide income several years from now, and with careful and astute planning and asset appreciation, she should be able to make the down payment for the community and meet the living expenses.

Again, you need to plan for the long-term, and find a really good financial planner. But the principal thing in the present would seem to be raising your mother's awareness that she cannot afford to spend $120,000 a year, buy a new car, remodel a vaction home, remodel a kitchen, and otherwise live 300% above her means.

Hope this clarifies a bit.

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Reply to
dapperdobbs

Error:

Should be: Gross Income $29,400 + $9,000 = $38,400 Annual Expenses = $40,000 Annual Deficit = $1,600

She should make it OK. A couple of million bucks IS still what it used to be.

(sorry :-)

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Reply to
dapperdobbs

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