"gifts" (or not) and deductions from income for"support" (or not), etc ??

Would be very grateful for some informed opininons/pointers about what are probable estate tax planning and also income tax implications/solutions - and, preferably, cites to sources - that address the following:

--------------- FACT ASSUMPTIONS:

> The taxpayer in question has and has reason to believe she will continue to have a very substantial yearly income and will not die until sometime long after 2011; >> Congress will amend the tax laws to increase the formerly existing "cap" for Unified Tax Credit and estate tax purposes substantially above levels in effect in 2002 but not eliminate all estate tax and will maintain the yearly $11,000 gift tax exclusion at or close to that sum; >> The taxpayer in question will leave an estate when she dies substantially greater in value than whatever such new "cap"/levels may be - that is, will have a taxable estate - and will be survived by several presently young children and a legally married husband who she intends will be in some combination (perhaps not relevant here to discuss) the sole beneficiaries of her estate.

---------------

SCENARIO/QUESTIONS:

The high-income taxpayer's mother - who has only recently become eligible for Medicare, is not eligible for SSI or SSD benefits, and who, because of recent years of non-employment, will be receiving only a comparatively very small amount of social security - is very seriously debilitated and disabled by a severe combination of physical and mental illnesses which require rehabilitative therapy and caretaking expenses that probably will be needed over a period of years and which this year alone have included non-insured hospitable bills of more than $10,000 and (residential and rehabilitative) nursing home care exceeding $20,000 which the taxpayer has paid on her parent's behalf.

The parent, who presumptively will have a comparatively long life span despite her debilitated medical condition, owns jointly with her also unemployed and unemployable husband substantially less than $425K in marketable securities plus a one-family residence owned jointly with him, and has no source of income or ability to generate income other than from recently and foreseeably decreasing interest earned on the securities or, perhaps, from spending portions of that capital plus borrowings as against the equity in the residence which, however, if done, and if the other assets are spent down, would leave whichever survives of the spouses without assets or (but for the questions posed here) income.

The daughter/taxpayer, who does not presently have a contractual or other law imposed obligation financially to support her mother, has reason to believe that she will continue to be able and is willing to pay for her mother's needed in-home or even nursing home care not covered by Medicare and, in addition, also to provide an income to the parent in the +/- $50K annual range - considerations which, however, raise at least these questions (plus any others that informed folk here may suggest) -

If the funds supplied to or on behalf of the parent constitute more than fifty percent of her mother's support/maintenance, to what if any extent are they deductible from the taxpayer's income taxes?

If the funds supplied to or on behalf of the parent constitute more than fifty percent of her mother's support/maintenance and are not presently deductible from the taxpayer's income taxes, what if anything lawfully can be done to achieve such deductibility?

Bearing that the taxpayer already this year has expended on behalf of her mother and mother's husband more than $22,000, although she had not given each $11,000 directly, how if at all can the taxpayer lawfully avoid having the IRS later claim that payments to the parent or to third-party health care providers, etc., on the parent's behalf are not gifts that eat into the Unified Tax Credit (thus, if such a claim were to be made, interfering with what the taxpayer would like eventually to leave to her young children and spouse) - or is this a moot question and, if so, why?

Thanks very much!

Reply to
baybinthuhwoulds
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I, for one, would be grateful if someone could explain to me why someone with substantial assets and current earning ability would be wasting time trying to get free advice on such complicated intertwined issues rather than just plopping the whole thing in the laps of some very well-paid advisors and getting on about peddling her mousetrap or, better yet, offering her parents equivalent time in just being with them.

Citations not necessary.

Reply to
Phil Marti

Yeah, I got to the second paragraph that said she has "substantial yearly income" and didn't feel like reading the rest of a long, complex post.

Stu

Reply to
Stuart Bronstein

Quite a long post. Is the child supporting the parent?

They're not. Some people try to set up a corporation or sole proprietorship and write off the amounts they want to give (such as

50k) in your case, as an expense such as salary. The amount would be taxable to the recipient but the tax would be small, whereas the tax savings to the giver is large. However, unless this is a real business and there is real work, it is tax fraud.

The annual gift exclusion is 12k, not 11k. Amounts paid for medical expenses for your qualifying parent don't count towards the 12k annual limit. I'm not sure if the payments must be made directly to the medical institution, but it's probably a good idea to do this. These are deductible on the child's return, subject to the 7.5% limit.

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But talk to a pro to go over all your details and to get a good strategy.

Reply to
removeps-groups

Yes, what he said. So you can gift $24K/yr with no issue in addition to the medical bills. Are you married? If so, you are up to $48K as spouse can gift as well. If not, you should be filing gift returns for the difference. You can also contrive a loan using their home as collateral, and forgive $24K worth of interest/yr. If you are high income, that extra effort may not be worth it. Just file the gift return. Joe

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Reply to
joetaxpayer

Is a gift tax return still required if both husband and wife give 24k to one person? It's just to record the gift splitting (that both husband and wife consent to give the gift), but there is no gift tax.

What are the gift tax rates? Are they the same as the estate tax rates at

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2782,00.html#estate_max_rate_2006?That is, 35% on amounts over 10450? I read somewhere about a 45%rate.

Forgiven interest has to be included as income in the forgiven person's tax return taxed at that person's tax rate (maybe 15% here). But if the IRS thinks that the loan setup is an attempt to avoid the gift tax, they may recharacterize the forgiven interest as a gift, and subject the giver to a gift tax on it, and mabe some penalties too.

Reply to
removeps-groups

It depends. If each gives exactly $12,000, then no. But if one gives more of his personal property and the other gives less of hers, then a return is required.

Basically yes. But until 2010 the estate tax exemption is greater than the gift tax exemption. So the initial gift tax marginal bracket will be lower (because it involves less money) than the estate tax marginal bracket.

Either that or included in the donor's income imputed income gifted to the donee.

If it's set up so that the forgiveness is done every years automatically, then that could well happen. If the kids actually send a check but the donor forgives the payment after the check is in his hand, that would likely not be seen as a pretext.

Stu

Reply to
Stuart Bronstein

"but the donor forgives the payment after the check is in his hand" -- to me that sounds like the same thing as automatic forgiveness of the loan. In the OP's scenario (which might actually turn out to be a take home final) the parent, who is poor and writing the check, could write a check to the kids knowing that they will write void on it and not cash it, and the purpose of writing a check is just to make it look formal and kosher, and they might not even have the money in their bank account anyway, and if so then it is a way to fool the IRS.

Reply to
removeps-groups

A check without funds behind it is always a bad idea.

In that situation, I'd advise the child to give the parent $12,000 (or $24,000 or $48,000 as appropriate) first. After the child's gift clears, the parent can pay the loan with a valid check that gets cashed.

Seth

Reply to
Seth

(a bunch snipped here....)

IF each gave 12000 separate, you'r eright.

But chances are that only one check was written, thus the gift tax return must be filed to affirm the joint gift and that the other spouse assents thereto.

ChEAr$, Harlan

Reply to
Harlan Lunsford

I was thinking of community property. In community property states any gift normally comes from both spouses equally, even if it's in one check. There is no gift to split since each is making a gift of his or her own funds in an amount within the annual exclusion amount.

Stu

Reply to
Stuart Bronstein

snipped-for-privacy@panix.com (Dick Adams) wrote in news:g0g6om$gdi$1 @reader2.panix.com:

Late father was very enthousiastic about his cataract surgery. All those colors!

I'll be facing it some time too, so please keep us updated, but don't strain those eyes, and don't bend over!

Reply to
Han

So then, in a communistic state, where a total of 24,000 were given to the daughter, the requirement to file 709 for gift splitting purposes does not apply?

Harlan

Reply to
Harlan Lunsford

I believe that's the case in most situations. Because it's not really splitting a gift. It's each spouse giving exactly half even if it's in one check.

Of course it's not necessarily the court in every instance. If all the money in the bank account is in the name of just one spouse and it was acquired by inheritance, it would be all his funds so a gift split would be required to avoid incurring gift tax.

Stu

Reply to
Stuart Bronstein

But the original problem was to give more than the maximum exemption amount to the parent, such as 50k when the maximum was 24k. The strategy to set up a loan from parent to child, and for the child to forgive the loan, even if the child has a check in hand (and if the money is in the parent's account), and to do this every year, still seems like a way to skirt the onerous gift tax. At least an IRS agent might ask you to prove that this is a valid loan, and why is it being forgiven each year, etc.

Reply to
removeps-groups

Of course. There's nothing wrong with doing that. The problem comes when the gift is really made in one year and spreading it out is only a formality. When the donor has a check in hand, the decision as to whether to make the forgiveness/gift really only happens at that time. I've done this kind of thing for clients, and have never had a problem.

Stu

Reply to
Stuart Bronstein

Lend the parent the rest.

The other way around, I think.

That's what I suggested, except that I suggested using actual transactions instead of forgiving. If the lender just forgives $24K each year, it can look like one large gift. By having actual payments made, it's clear that it's one loan and several gifts.

There's nothing to ask if there's no forgiveness.

Seth

Reply to
Seth

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