It's also a further attack on families where one parent wants to
actually look after their own children. Families like already have to
suffer one personal tax allowance that they can't use, lack of tax
credits available to working parents, and now a possible loss of their
(='.'=) Due to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
I thought they were going to withdraw it via the tax system, so
presumably there'll be some taper there. And unless they put something
specific in place, an easy way round it for people on the borderline
will be use to pension contributions to lower the income they're
assessed on. This works with tax credits now.
They won't touch pensioner benefits because pensioners are good
voters. Labour did their best to bribe them with increased fuel
allowances, pension credit, bus passes and applicable amounts double
what younger people get...
I didn't vote for Labour because of the "bribes",and in any case I don't
get any means tested benefits such as pension credit.
I voted *against* Cameron because he is so far from reality that he
regards high rate taxpayers as "Middle England", and lies that "We are
all in this together". All the current Cabinet are well safe from
any hardship which will result from the cuts.
So are most people I would have thought.
If I understand this change correctly, you're only affected if you're
earning £900 a week or more -- 3 years from now (when the tax burden could
be different anyway).
Also, doesn't Cameron himself currently qualify for child benefit, which
would no longer be the case under the new rules?
No, because if you take 2500 away from someone who earns 45K you have taken
away a significant part of their after tax income. It's easy to say that
people on 100K wont miss it but the 45K people will
If they're currently relying on spending all of their income plus the £2500,
then yes they will miss it. But they have 3 years to adapt.
Many would consider such a family well-off and might resent subsidising
them, especially if struggling to bring up kids with a smaller income.
wrote: >>> No, because if you take 2500 away from someone who earns 45K you have
If they become unemployed, then there's no problem: they will re-qualify for
the benefit (of course they might realise that earning £45K and *no* child
benefit is much better).
However you have to look at how other people see this: people earning double
the average salary (and about 4 times mine), receiving state handouts!
And £45K is the very bottom end of the income band we're talking about;
there will be people earning £1000 to £2000 a week or more getting state
aid. That's not right.
To make it more realistic, let's talk about a family of 4 on £45K and a
single person on £12K.
Around here, the single person might pay about the same in rent as the
family (2 or 3-bedroom house, say £550pm).
He might pay about the same for water (£450pa).
About the same for a TV licence (£150pa).
A bit less in council tax (£900pa instead of £1200).
Roughly the same for heating and electricity (say £1500pa plus a bit more
for the family for extra showers etc).
Also similar fixed car costs (say £1000pa for one car, not including running
The single person does pay a lot less tax, some £1200, while the family I
think would pay about £8000 plus NI.
So far, the single person is down to a mere £200.
Meanwhile the family is still on some £26,000 (less NI) !
The family of 4 also have the *choice* of splitting their income, where both
parents work, for example into £35000 and £10000; that way, they keep child
benefit, and have an extra £6K tax-free band. Plus of course there are the
various concessions usually available to children, and young mothers. Plus
other economies of scale which are more practical with more people in the
Are you still sure it's the family on £45,000pa who deserve the extra
You must live in a very different area than me since I would come up
with very different figures. Rent or mortgage on a family house would
be about 4 times as much as your figures here. As this is a rural
areas most families have two or more cars since they cannot travel to
work by public transport. According to the AA the annual running
costs of a small car is about £2000. A family car would be at least
How? Ask their employer for a pay /cut/?!!! This also assumes that
the partner is able to find employment and someone else to look after
This does illustrate how the system is unfair on families where one
partner looks after their own children. Personally I think that
parents /should/ look after their own children, rather than farm them
out and I am opposed to the system which discourages looking after
one's own children. I know loads of people who felt forced to return
to work after having children.
Unfortunately this is a myth. The cost of bringing up children is
much greater than any concessions could give. And the economy of
scale sounds nice but does not happen in the real world.
Some of them do certainly.
(='.'=) Due to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
Yes, and the flip side of this is that unemployed families have no
incentive to get a job because the net gain (after tax/benefits
reduction) would be trivial. This creates a divide between 2 earner
households and no earner households - the UK has the highest rate of
jobless households in the EU, despite having lower than average
The reason for this anomaly is down to the way the tax & benefits
systems work - benefits and tax credits are withdrawn sharply at the
lower end which acts as a disincentive for the first earner, while
independant taxation makes it very worthwhile for the second earner to
get a job.
In other countries where taxation is assessed on families not
individuals, there is far fairer spread of jobs and as a consequence
less is needed for benefits.
The benefits reforms this government are proposing look excellent -
the universal credit and single "reasonable" withdrawal rate should
simplify the current mess and act as an incentive to work, but unless
they combine it with a reform of the tax system it probably won't
work, as second earners will still have a far larger gain to work than
Unfortunately independant taxation seems to be some sort of sacred cow
which nobody dares challenge. Or rather politicials have pretended it
So you expect the single person to have the luxury of living alone,
with his own kitchen, toilet etc exclusively for his own use, while
the family of 4 have to share the same facilities?
If you want to compare like with like, compare the single person
sharing a house with 3 other people. Then he'll have the same standard
of living as the family.
Or 112 is he shares his accomodation like the family.
Or 37.50 if he shares.
Or 300 if he shares.
So again you expect the single person to have his *own* car whereas
the family should share a car of the same size/expense??
And the difference will get greater, the family will pay more NI and
the same tax as from April, the single person will pay less tax and
Try again assuming the same standard of living.
Do you think the family should survive of the same amount of food as a
single person too?
Do they? Do you think it's easy getting 2 jobs which never overlap in
time, so there's always some at home to look after the baby?
It shouldn't be a handout. We should have a system like France, where
everyone gets to use their tax allowance against the salary that
supports them, whether or not they earn the money themselves. I think
children get half an allowance, so a family of 4 with a single earner
on 45k would get 3 allowances to set against that salary, and the tax
bands would be 3 times wider.
Nope. They specifically said that the rise in the personal allowance
would be cancelled out for higher rate taxpayers (by lowering the HRT
For employee NI they are sticking with Labour plans to raise the
threshold and raise the rate, resulting in people on under 20k
gaining and those on over 20k losing.
It is. But tax rates would probably have to rise, and successive
governments have been obsessed with lowering it over the last few
wrote in message >>> Who's better off, a family of 6 on a single salary of £45k or a single
I wouldn't have called living alone a luxury. Family life can be much more
Anyway the kitchen is hardly shared, unless each member of the family cooks
(Not if they each have their own room)
This is getting silly; you expect mature single people to all live in the
same 2-3 bedroom house with strangers?
In practice, a single person on a low income is likely to live in a flat,
but they are not that much cheaper than houses (not to the tune of 75%), and
they have many disadvantages compared to a house.
So the family still ends up with a far better lifestyle: more income, a nice
house with garden, and state aid on top! Compared with 4 unrelated singles
each living in their flats or bedsits.
And again, you expect this to be a 4-car family?? I'm saying this should be
1-car family; if they want 2-cars, then no way should they get state aid to
support that lifestyle.
(In the family I grew up in, we were a 0-car family.)
Also, pretty much any ordinary car will easily transport two adults and two
children. Child benefit shouldn't be for financing luxury cars.
I didn't get to that bit. But my figures (admittedly just a bit of fun),
showed the single person had to eat on £200 a year, while the family had
over £20,000 left!
I didn't say it was easy. Just possible, and it doesn't need to happen
If the family are likely to have very young children in 2013 who need caring
for at home, then maybe the choice isn't there, but then this will be a
young family and living costs will also be a lot less compared to teenage
kids; a £45K income will still be plenty.
Having extra tax allowances might make a lot more sense. And be less
controversial than what is perceived as hand-outs to rich people.
As can sharing anything. A bottle of wine, a meal, a car, a house. You
don't have to have a family to share any of them.
Strangers? Do most single people have no mates? No family (in the
broader sense)? I lived in several shared houses when I was single,
mostly with people I knew already, and one of them with complete
strangers when I looked for room ads in the local paper (though
obviously they weren't strangers after a week or so living with them).
So share a house, FFS! If you've got no mates, make some by replying
to the house share ads in the papers! But if you want to live alone,
don't expect to compare your standard of living with those who choose
to share their accomodation with others. That's just as stupid as
complaining you pay more if you drink a bottle of wine yourself than
if you share it.
You said the costs would be the same. A single person only needs
transport suitable for 1 (if he's not going to share). Either a very
small car, or maybe a motorbike. Even if the family share, and so they
can't do different things at the same time which require a car unlike
the single person, they would need a bigger car.
And tax allowances shouldn't be financing selfish people who don't
want to share.
Extra tax allowances are pretty much identical in effect to universal
benefits like child benefit.
wrote in message >> Having extra tax allowances might make a lot more sense. And be less
As I said, paid as extra benefits to well-off parents, they are more
But whichever way the benefit is given, it still leaves the underlying
problem that we can't afford benefits for everybody.
If benefits (in this case, child benefit) have to be reduced, we can (1)
reduce them equally for everybody; (2) reduce them for poorer people; or (3)
reduce them for more well-off people.
The government seems to have decided on (3). In effect, higher-paid people
will be taxed even more, with a few corner-cases that are attracting
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