That's because you are the one pushing the adequacy of knowledge about a limited range.
I am saying you should need to know quite a lot about all products as well as finance in general.
I think you will find it very difficult diving in and developing a niche knowledge from your approach. It's as hard as trying to become an estate agency accounting expert without learning broad accountancy first.
Peter Saxton from London snipped-for-privacy@petersaxton.co.uk
In article , Stephen GoldenGun writes
Well you could have quite serious problems if you tried so doing without being qualified and regulated.
Not necessarily, tied advisers can also deal with the whole mortgage market, just restricted on life products.
Good, not saying stay out, just get qualified, if you're gonna do it, you must to ensure your clients get the service you want to provide.
Incorrect, many life offices forced their advisers to sit and cold call on a regular basis including sitting with the phone directory.
That's inbound, not outbound which is waht we were referring to.
No maybe not, but that's the service you offered above.
No it's not, a meeting with a client is a pre-arranged appointment, a cold call is an outgoing call to someone without previous agreement or invitation.
No that's true, but then they aren't cold calls, as they've been invited
True, but not what you say above, when you stated "Everytime you meet a client, even if you have got the referrel, it is still a "cold call"..if you aint met him before then its cold...thats my point"
Not an issue here, but not relevant to what I'm talking about.
Really, do you have inside information? Or are you speculating or refering to the telesales industry as a whole? As you have already stated above you do not have any vast knowledge of the financial services industry, I'll educate you a little, The Financial Services Authority has recently proposed in paper CP146 to ban (not control) all cold calling (ie uninvited calls), this is not opinion, it is published fact issued by the regulators.
No, you are again mistaken, due to your incorrect definition of cold calling, a reply to an advert is invited and therefore not a cold call (which you even stated above). A lead passed to me may have inititally been cold called, but once passed to me it *should* be with a clients agreement, therefore invited and not cold, often referred to as a warm or hot lead. Any client inbound call is by definition not a cold call. Also worth noting is that contacting an existing cutomer without previous agreement to discuss other services is also cold calling.
I should add that I have no problem with telesales operations (and have never stated anything to the contrary), for inbound calls as this is a valid customer service.I also have no problems with outbound calls (or cold calls), so long as they crosscheck with the TPS before calling people and when calling they *must* allow the customer to end the call at any time without pressure.
Arfie
Yah, very true, especially when I think back to the E commerce bubble that burst, thats a clear example of what your talking about.
My travels around Eastern Europe, and my knowledge of the former Soviet Countries lead me to believe that there is not going to be some crazy kind of influx....although I think it is going to become a big political issue in this country, and in europe as a whole..it is inevitable. in my opinion.
I assume they went out and met them.
Telephone sales is about recieving, making, getting appointments, doing surveys, following up customers and many other things as well.
Ok, thats your definition, but to me a cold call is the first meeting that takes place or the first convo between potential client and seller.
I'm talking about telesales in general, I'm not talking about regulations covering a particular industry.
Again, that is just your definition. To which I don't agree.
Ok, but I don't agree, I call a cold call, is your first encounter either by voice or in person, that is the "cold meeting" to me.
A lead passed to me may have inititally been
I agree, also not only that , but what is the point in using some foolish "pressure selling con trick" the client is only going to change his or her mind, or at the least the person selling will get a bad reputation and bad name...so its false economy not to mention bad business ethics, and probably illegal..or bordering on illegal..judging by some of the "high pressure" sales techniques I've seen used in personal visits, from hidden camera type documentaries.
Yes, in many cases, but the point is, they cold called them in the 1st place.
No it's not my definition, it is the regulators definition. see
Well, your own thread is about financial products, I have stated that I do not wish to restart your thread about genreal telemarketing.
Not my definition, the industry's!
I'll re-iterate this for you again, a cold call is where *YOU CONTACT A PROSPECT*, either by telephone or in person *WHERE NO PREVIOUS CONTACT HAS BEEN MADE*.
Cold calling ONLY refers to YOU initiating a contact, if a client contacts you that is their call and is not relevant.
"Cold meeting" this is not relevant to anything as it's your definition of a
1st meeting, but if it's been pre-arranged then it's not cold as the client has previously agreed to it!I do hope this helps you understand, what I'm talking about, this thread is about the Financial Services Industry, and you seem to have grasped exactly what I'm saying regarding the products, but you seem to be confused between telemarketing in general and cold calling and it's definition, you also seem confused about telemarketing in general (which I neither know about or want to know about) and in financial services. The points I've made above are fact, so your opinions (or mine) do not matter.
Arfie
It is what I call a "cold call", so whatever definition is used in the financial world is not changing my definition of that word. To me it is the "cold" when it is the first contact. So thats my definition of how I use the word "cold" when it is regard to sales. This is subjective, maybe the sales people of ICI have a different one, and the sales people working for the AA use a different one etc.etc.
The point is that you can't say this use is correct or not, it is entirely on personal choice.
Thats fine, but telemarketing is not confined to any one industry thats what I was saying.
It is still cold, its not having a relationship built up already.
I'm not at all confused, it is a question of definition, I am simply including all first meetings as being "cold" thats all, this is important when considering the way to play it.
So many sales people get complacant, it is important to view it in this way, but then as you say, there are a number of different ways of looking at sales. It is all entirely about different choice.
you also seem> confused about telemarketing in general (which I neither know about or want
Thats right they are just opinions and are irrelevant as it is just question of different names for the same process.
The main point I have been making about financial products, is that the internet is really taking the mystery away from financial products, and that most financial products are simple to understand.
When I was talking about selling financial products, I would not just zip out and start selling the most complex products, but, it is possible to go on a course for a few weeks for various companies and just start selling them. They are not rocket science, unlike training to be an accountant or doing a business degree, the knowledge needed to sell financial products is not at all difficult. So of course whatever qualifications I need to get I could easily get.
From the postings of someone else, it is seems there are quite a lot of financial products you are able to sell with out needing any qualifications....
However, I know that I am having more understanding of some of those financial products than some so called "financial advisors".....not all, but some...
The thing is financial specialists sometimes try to make it sound so myserious, but in fact many financial products are so simple, and it is just a question of showing the client all the facts...and showing them how the figures pan out.
Look at endowments? All the rubbish financial sales people where spouting about them. They did more damage to the financial sales industry than anything I think...
What do you think about the endowmen selling fiasco?
We look like having to agree to disagree on this subject as you want to discuss the merits of telemarketing and your definitions, none of which is of interest to me, I was simply trying to help you understand how the financial services industry works.
Arfie
Yes they are.
As far as I'm aware there are no courses for non qualification, so this wouldn't work. Courses AFAIK are only to make you qualified and become a tied agent, most companies will send you on about a 12 week full time course as a newby to the industry (about 4-6 weeks if you're qualified just to sell their products) and get you through the FPC, but at the end you are tied. I may be wrong about this, but I've never seen a single advert for a non reg course in any of the indusrty press.
No they aren't rocket science and I've never claimed they are, in fact I encorage you to do them to enter this business, I have no time for people who haven't qualified giving advice.
Yes this is true and it was me who told you earlier in this very thread, but the point was, you wouldn't know what is best for clients unless you know the other options that you couldn't sell are available to them.
I'm not sure about this, if it were the case, you wouldn't have needed to start this conversation, but if you say so, then so be it.
I don't want anything to sound complicated as I wouldn't like a salesman in any industry patronising me by making it sound too complicated for me to understand. I encorage clients to ask questions and if I see a blank look I explain again.
Many advisers showed maturity figures too high rather than middle estimates, and now returns have dropped people are complaining and for those people who were mislead it is a valid complaint, all I can say is that I am not aware of a single complaint made about any endowments I've sold since I started in this business, not one! so some of us did the job properly.
I'm now only dealing with non regulated products, it's not worth the hassel dealing with Pensions, Investments and other complex products as I can no longer be bothered arguing with clients because their mate "Bob the Butcher" says not to do it cos his made "kev" knows someone who had one and it's crap, because there are too many "experts" out there who do not have to deal with the consequnces of what they say. By that I mean, if we were in a pub talking to a guy and my mate who's a drugs rep said to have a personal and I said to have a Stakeholder pension, just in conversation and it turned out that I was wrong, he could sue me for bad advice, despite the fact that it is just a general conversation, however if rles were reversed and I was right and my mate was wrong, nothing could happen.
Endowments are right for some people and wrong for many others (main complaint is that they are risk averse), the press battered this subject, when returns started falling, but promoted ISA mortgages, which are also equity based and many are falling in value, is anybody taking issue with the papers for this advice?
The irony though is that you are promoting people cutting the middleman out (in other threads) by doing it all via the internet and doing their own research, so that would mean that there are less places available for new people to enter the industry. I don't think this will happen as most people do not want to do the research or do not know how to do it, for example I am a qualified adviser and understand the products, I know how to research and where to look for information, but I would still go and see a financial adviser to do this for me, but then I know more good ones than bad ones, both tied and IFA.
In the end what I'm saying to you is, you've expressed a desire to help people, by giving the best advice you can and best value for money that you can. To do this you need to learn the industry, not just what you will sell, but other options, you even need to know about old products that no longer exist, so you know whether it is best for your client to keep an old product or replace it, In my honest opinion the only way you can do this is to take the exams and learn the industry, if you do this, you'll do well for your clients and good luck if you do.
All the Best Arfie
I am not knowing the ins and outs of it all, I'm just saying that there are many companies that train you up in a few weeks and you are then allowed to sell all of thier products..Norwich Union is an example of one.
The point is whatever the length of time of the courses they are not degree level. And what about the loads of products you don't have to have "specific" qualifications to sell?
But just cause you don't have an "industry qualification" does not mean the person selling could not be more highly qualified such as an accountant or having a business degree or something of that nature?
I don't exactly know the different quals, but there must be lots of different qualifications...usually industry standard quals are quite easy to get...
The adverts I have seen are for working for companies..and selling their products...and they are not more than a few weeks.
My point is that the qualifications are not what makes a person good or not....thats all I'm saying. Qualifcations are not suddenly going to make a guy having more knowledge about world finance? Or the world economy? OR more importantly will not make the person more trustworthy or have more integrity.
Well, as I said, you don't have to be qualified to sell something to know if you want it or need it? Don't get me wrong I'm not talking about me selling some of these higher products, I'm just making the point that the fact financial sales people have to be qualified for selling certain products does in no way make the products more comlicated or make it more difficult for the average guy in the street to udnerstand.
I believe that no financial products are too difficult to understand..they are all quite simple.
The point is that there are good and bad in all industries, I am making the point that many financial advisors have misselled many products int he past, and there are also financial advisors selling products who are not having basic grasps of maths, which are necessary to really analyse things properly. Even I have come across such people myself.
You keep referring to "this conversation" as if it has strict perameters....conversations can move to discuss different points of view as and when they come up as is the way of a normal organic conversation..taking a different a path..
I find the entire subject of financial products, qualifications, selling them, the internet all interrelated and of immediate interest to me and all on this site. Its quite a broad subject..and everything related is of interest.
Do you think this was done intentionally or not? It seems from what people are saying they believe that the financial advisors did this as part of a way to decieve.
Maybe so Arfie, and more credit to you, however, we are really talking about the industry as a whole, and what others have done, means you get tarred with the same brush.
In much the same way one of the estate agents was saying that when some of their members do wrong, it effects public perception.
Thats part of the problem....it was a pitty more of the industry was not regulated..
By that I mean, if we were in a pub> talking to a guy and my mate who's a drugs rep said to have a personal and I
Hang On!! I am looking at the possibilities that are there....I am not promoting, but I am looking at "reality" what are people doing, how are they doing it, which way is the market heading....ok..
It is not people promoting that makes these websites happen, it is market demand and it is the technology that is allowing it..So be careful about putting words in peoples mouths..I did not say "promote"..
However,, if you are asking me do I think the internet can save people lots of money, then absolutely it is a good idea.....
by doing it all via the internet and doing their own research, so that would mean that there are less places available for new
This is what I am asking!!! What does the future hold for financial middle men? Thats exactly the question I am raised, asking people to build on that topic and to come to a conclusion..about this?
1/ Is the internet doing away with the middleman?2/ Is it allways a good thing?
3/ Who benefits?Etc.etc.etc.....also alfie, I'm interest to know about the longer term future impact upon the sales market place the interenet takes......and financial products are particularly suited to the internet. The simpler the product the easier they are to sell....
What types of products are not suitable to be sold on the net? What types will allway have a face to face advisor etc.etc?
I believe the market will change and is changing, it will effect the future of financial advisors but it will change it I reckon, I don't think it will do away totally with financial sales people. or independant advisors..at all...
. I don't think this will happen as most people> do not want to do the research or do not know how to do it,
Thats the point I'm trying to make, I think alot of products are easy to understand and are easy now to search on the internet..there are complete specialist and totally sophisticated sites, that are gaining trust and are backed up by trusted brand names! Thats what I'm asking about.
for example I am a qualified adviser and understand the products, I know how to research and
Sure thats true, but for example if I am an average customer who wants
1/ Insurance or 2/ Mortage..I just click in Car Insurance? Or House Insurance Or Mortage..Or Interest only mortage..or
"what is" endowment mortgage...
etc.etc. and its all there...
or "comparison"......interest only mortgages..
Or "future predictions of interest rates".
Its all there....and there is stacks more info that any financial advisor can say......
but I would still go and see a financial
I am interested in how the industry is changing in relation to the internet, I am interest in any products that can be sold easily..and at the same time give good value to clients..
Some products are not so simple to be sold easily...and I understand that..and won't probably try to sell them unless I go into it in a big way, and if I did, I would do in accordance to a business model, meaning,if I needed experienced trained folk, who are having whatever necessary skills, I would simply employ them, or make relations with them....in a business model....
Business is about delegation.....and if my object is to sell the most complex financial products..then I would use my business skills to find and source a high quality reputable individual who knows about these products....
Just to give an example..of how I would/could structure it...with negotation anyhthing can be achieved.
To do this you need to learn the industry, not just what you will sell,
In article , Stephen GoldenGun writes
How this will probably work is that you will go on an initial course in which you are 'trained' in SOME of their products, having passed this you will then be allowed out in front of the public with rather heavier monitoring. Within two years you will need to get your FPC/CeFA and for mortgages CeMAP/MAQ[1] so at least 11 hours of external examinations, which although not difficult is still time and a lot of study, assuming that you pass these and satisfy other requirements you would be 'competent' at which stage your level of monitoring would reduce.
[1] These rules are currently a bit less concrete as I understand things, due to the transition from MCCB to FSAIf you want to do more complicated ones, such as pension transfers, whilst it maybe fairly straightforward to sell the concept (move money from your pension from A to B and it might do better but it might not) the actual process involved is rather complicated and requires rather more study and qualification. If you were to continue in a similar vein dealing with trusts, overseas people, businesses etc, lots more exams to take and you then reach the levels of being able to consider chartered financial status.
I would say that this MAY have been the situation in the past, with advisers acting on information/instructions supplied by govt and companies, but this is now a heavily regulated sector and I would like to think that you would struggle to find an incompetent financial adviser.
It was also a way to reduce the cost of the product, LAUTRO/PIA/FSA provided three levels for assuming growth rates if advisers used a higher rate this would make the premium lower, as I'm sure you can work out, which could be used as a marketing technique when there was someone else competing for business.
How do you intend to regulate what the milkman tells me or the bloke I met down the pub?
I havent looked at Amazon's accounts but aren't they profitable before depreciation and interest? Isn't their problem financing their huge investment in infrastructure?
Peter Saxton from London snipped-for-privacy@petersaxton.co.uk
I dont know about that, I know they are in the top one hundred largest and most valuable businesses in the world.
Interested in getting a mortgage in Dallas? In My Opinion - Dont go near White Rock Mortgage at whiterockmortgage.com. They claim to save you money by working on the internet and using Paypal. They are very responsive to your emails and phone calls in the beginning. I found Paul to be very nice and helpful. I was told I needed to lock my interest rate and I should deposit $300.00 toward MY closing costs to ensure my rate. I did this through Paypal. I informed Paul that I was still shopping around like any good shopper would do. He didnt inform me at all about any cancellation costs involved in my deposit.
Anyway, I cancelled my lock cause I went with another, more competitive company. So I called Paul back to get my full refund and my calls went unanswered. The same person who immediately called me back or anwered my calls before, was refusing to talk to me. He didnt even respond to my emails. I was getting worried so I tried him on his 1-866 number and he answered immediately. Funny how I had just tried him twice in the past 5 minutes and he didnt answer, but when I called the 1-866 number, he picked up. He quickly hung up on me and the avoidance began again.
I finally got Paul on the phone (after his email stating that they charge $200.00 for cancellations) and calmly explained to him that I didnt sign anything and was never informed about the cancellations so I felt I deserved a complete refund. He explained to me that it costs him money to lock rates and therefore, the money was used for his costs. So I asked if he could send me documentation on those costs and/or receipts for the costs that his company incurs for cancelled rate locks. He admitted to me that he keeps the money. I felt that this was still not appropriate. The conversation went on. I understand that Mortgage companies should charge cancellation fees because they would get people locking and cancelling all the time, I just explained to him that I felt that he and his company didnt explain that to me in the first place and that was why I felt I deserved a complete refund. I never signed anything or was made aware of his cancellation policy until he had my money. Funny how that is.
Some other interesting things that we discussed: He told me that honestly $200.00 isnt really that much money anyway, so why bother. I should have told him, if it isnt that much money, then just give it back. Also, I was told that I started the process with him by calling him and that it was bad for me to go back with another company and I should have remained with his company. I explained to him that this is America and you dont just pick a company to work with in anything without researching the other companies out there. He was insulting me by suggesting that I shouldnt have been shopping around.
I contacted Paypal and filed a complaint with them. I also filed a complaint with the Dallas BBB at
Sorry to hear of your story Jacob! It sounds bad, I can tell you that paypal have some kind of "no refund policy" meaning that you can't get your money back from them.
They are involved in many legal disputes at the moment in the USA..
Here in the Uk you could have taken that person to a small claims court.
You must have some legal discourse in Dallas, like that Judge Judy! Can't you take him to court, or threaten to take him to court, but only threaten if you really seriously intend to go through with it..otherwise it is nothing but an empty threat.
See, some people/businesses, they know that people like you will not take them to court, so they rely on that fact.
I'm not sure, I think paypal give quite good cover for the USA, but shaft us in UK although I've no problems with them, failing gatting anywhere with Paypal, contact your credit card company and try and get a refund through them.
Again I'm not sure about this and your potential success chances as all he would do is say he told you and it's your word against his and to get legal representation would probably cost more than your $200.
Sorry I can't be of more use to you, but this is a UK newsgroup, so we don't tend to know much about your rules and regulations.
But good luck
Arfie
I thought it was cowboys and indians. More specifically cowboy salesmen and indian website designers.
Raygun the Paygun, go and read some of "system prompt postings" you might find them amusing.
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