OTS interim report

Most companies will have a "taxable expenses" claim procedure - for example it'd be used if an employee comes in at the weekend on overtime, as the travel to work is an additional expense to the employee but is not tax deductable. The claim will usually be paid in salary grossed up by the employee's marginal tax/NI rate.

No they wouldn't - it would be illegal for the employer to expect this as it would contravene the working time directive (minimum of 11 hours off each working day).

How much public transport runs at 2am?

Not really. Employers are free to pay for such things via salary as above.

You work in some strange companies.

I have never worked for one who will refund my fares in this instance.

I know what the WTD says about this, but the reality is that for a one-off you will be expected back in work (to "present" the work that necessitated you staying until 2 in the morning in the first place).

There's a perfectly usable night bus network in London - you just have to wait a bit longer at the stop than you might like.

ISTM that London is the only place where this comparison applies because for most other places your "overnight" NMW workers will likely live close enough to make other arrangements.

I know that they are, but that misses the point completely

tim

I've worked for companies that generally treat employees fairly and I would expect that if I come in on overtime at the request of the company, and incur additional cost in doing so, then the company should reimburse me. Why do you think this is "strange"?

The reality is that it would just as illegal for the company to expect this as it would be to pay the taxi fare out of petty cash and falsely account for it.

It seems it's *you* who've worked for some strange, dodgy companies who want to ignore the law.

The work wouldn't necessarily need "presenting". It could be an urgent support issue, it could be anything like a report which simply needed to be ready by first thing and could be emailed etc.

Which runs to everywhere London office works live? Say a village 20 miles outside London?

I work in Manchester and most of my colleagues travel 20-30 miles to get to work. They'd have no chance of getting home by public transport at 2am.

The point being that tax breaks should exist for companies who act illegally?

Ex #1. Person works to 2am to get benchmarking tests to USA (time difference remember). Company buys them pizza, expected to be in at 9am the following morning. Door locked behind them at 2am, "your problem". (Citrix).

Ex #2. Person interviewed for position, told they will be expected to work unpaid most weekends, when asked about how they get home & sleep they are told to just bring a sleeping bag. When they ask clarification on what actual hours are worked the interview ends, when they complain to the university they get a "your references are inadequate" by a different company (BT) handed to them by the head of department rather than through the post. The head of department was a director of the company they complained about and ex BT! Even better is when they challenged the head of department he replied "you are not supposed to figure that out". (LSI & Loughborough).

Ex #3. Person lands from USA at 2am, reminded to be at their desk at 9am by text and expected to entertain staff that evening. Hilariously "entertain staff" blew up in the companies face when the client met by a staggering young woman demanded furiously to see where they were living after they refused to take the client home, lets say the sleeping bag gives a clue. The person ended up with over £6,000 in unrecovered expenses when they left and had £5 notes thrown at them on the railway station as pocket money. She got of lightly, others told there were 2 people, 1 job and a weekly score on hours overtime etc, with the result that brake lines were cut to make the competitor late for meetings. (Arthur Andersen, defunct).

Ex #4. Person works 7am - 9pm M-Sat with some Sunday, only if they do this for 2 years are they promoted onto the graduate training scheme which they found out was the same work. They must sign that they worked

Ex #5. Person collected by manager on Saturday, sacked if they refuse to come into work Sat & Sun to do their accounts, live in a manager owned house at full rent with 1yr contract in an area where finding another job able to cover the rent is not easy. (BAA).

Ex #6. The company who boasted about what it could get away with, to unknown to them the son of a Schroder's IB, and paid the price for doing so. The Lotus Elise became a very popular choice for those who escaped from it and wanted to put as much distance from it as possible. (Logica, who else).

Ex #7. Employees at life insurance, investment bank & car insurance told training is outside working hours and sleeping bags provided. At the life insurer training turned out to be the exact same job as during the day, oddly enough, unpaid 5pm to midnight and a nice new jag for the trainer & another property in the managers portfolio full of company graduates of course. Fire Officer investigating hence not named.

That is colleagues, put together we could list about 100 from other people we know. Working Time Directive (after Arthur Anderson incident) is a squirt from windscreen wipers on Buncastle. It covers universities, civil service, charities, private schools (charitable trusts) and small to major companies.

Are years out included? Unpaid, unlimited hours, expenses refunded only at end of period, thus far the diploma of professional studies can not be awarded because the project is of an "insufficient academic value". That is what happens when the employee's credit card is used for the private spending of the employer and "we will refund you later" (Bournemouth).

Employers will sink to the lowest level when they know staff have nowhere else to go. The problem is, the UK sinks to the lowest level when global recovery brings staff an alternative & plane ticket.

Because most companies would expect you to take "today's" travel costs out of "today's" pay.

That's how it works M-F, why should Saturday be any different

Perhaps. They are usually called American or Japanese companies :-(.

I'm only telling you how it is, IME. And we are talking professional people, who could reasonably be expected to "know their rights". The sort of people who will see their career progression come to an abrupt end if they refuse to work the hours requested, law or no law.

It could, be it might not be.

QED. So why should they have too pay for a taxi out of earned income if they are forced to work that late?

Which IS what will happen if this relief is withdrawn.

Not at all.

That the withdrawal of the relief should be based upon the criteria that the OTS set down.

I don't believe that they have done that and I don't think that your replies addressed that point at all

tim

For similar reasons to your "occasional" late night worker. People make arrangements for their normal working hours transport, for instance they may share a lift with colleagues, their spouse may drop them off on the way to their work etc. Public transport may be different at weekends, I used to live in a village where there's no trains on Sundays for instance, without a car the only option would be a taxi (or a very long walk).

And in some careers you might not get anywhere unless you sleep with the boss. Does that provide a justification for tax relief on condoms?

It's ridiculous to use the fact that some companies think the law of the land doesn't apply to them to justify tax reliefs.

Not in my company. We'd claim it as taxable expenses as above, and the company would more than willingly pay it in gratitude for such dedication.

One of the criteria is "complex to administer". Clearly it's far simpler to have a rule that travel to usual place of work is not tax deductible, period, than it is to have a rule that for some people, in some circumstances, travel is tax deductible, eg depending on whether the last bus has gone or not. For a company with an expenses dispensation, whoever signs it off would need to check the bus/train timetables against the timed taxi receipt, or risk signing off a ineligible claim and putting the company's expenses dispensation at risk.

Because it's their own choice that they live so far away from work, and because they knew what they signed up for, and because the normal tax rule is that commuting does not qualify as an expense.

It might not. The employer might, in addition to whatever bonus payment has been agreed for the overtime (which of course is also taxable - would you argue that it should not be?), boost it by enough that the *net* amount after tax and NI would cover the taxi fare.

I think you are very lucky.

Every company that I have worked for have the policy of: it an expense isn't available as "non taxable" then it "isn't allowed".

But you aren't making it less complex to administer if you move it from: "fill in a self created form and it is available without affecting anyone's tax status" to "if we pay this expense, we are going to have to enter the world of 'paying the tax charge on it'" for a company that never otherwise makes payments to staff on which they (the company) pay the tax charge.

tim

But it's not normal commuting if you go home by train (normally) at 5 o'clock and you are forced to stay at work until midnight after the last train has gone.

In any case, as I (hope) I have stated this is not a criteria upon which they are assessing reliefs.

of course not :-(

The sort of company that I work for wouldn't even consider this.

tim

My company does it the other way too - some expenses which are allowed by HMRC they don't pay. For instance travel to a different office/customer is always tax deductible in full but they expect us to deduct any saving in commuting cost (we can of course claim tax relief on the difference).

But ensuring it is genuinely tax deductible could be complex.

The company doesn't pay the tax charge. They pay the employee in salary grossed up. This would be simple, most companies have procedures for paying bonuses or overtime etc.

Eg taxi fare 20, employee sends the boss an email, boss authorises a "bonus" of 20/0.58 = 34.48 (assuming HRT payer). No paper trail needed, no justification to HMRC as it's a taxable payment. It would be simpler than an expense claim (although more expensive). Alternatively, boss authorises a bit of extra overtime to pay the fare.

The option suggest by the OTS is that they do: "It could be settled through a PSA"

It would have to go on a P11D.

That's the sort of "fiddle" that people get arrested for.

tim

It could be but it'd probably be simpler to pay it through salary.

Eh? Course it wouldn't, it would be paid through payroll and so included in the P60. Just like overtime etc.

Oh really? So a company can ignore the law of the land (ie the WTD) but if they have a policy stating extra overtime can be claimed to pay for taxi fares etc then they are breaking the law? Exactly what law is that?

My last company had a written policy stating that overtime claims can be rounded up to the next half hour, that when employees get called out when not being paid to be on call they can claim an extra 2 hours, that when asked to work overtime but the overtime is cancelled at short notice they can still claim it. We just used to put a note on the claim explaining it. Similarly a note on the claim could state eg

Why would the police be interested?