Re: Road pricing - have your say

On Fri, 16 Feb 2007 21:33:54 +0000, GSV Three Minds in a Can put finger to keyboard and typed:

That's probably true. Automatics are inherently less efficient than manuals anyway - for a manual, optimum efficiency is obtained at somthing a bit below the point of maximum torque while travelling in top gear. How far "a bit below" depends on things like drag and rolling resistance - these are lower at lower speeds, so there will come a point where the engine's torque curve starts to flatten out or approach the peak but resistance continues to build and hence the losses caused by the latter at increased speeds outweigh the gain from the former. Obviously, once the engine goes over the peak of maximum torque then overall effciency starts to drop off quite severely (as by that time drag and rolling resistance are playing a much more significant part). A more flexible, "torquey" engine will reach maximum efficiency at lower speeds than a "peaky" engine and is less efficient when at the peak, but on the other hand it won't lose efficiency so quickly above the optimum. Modern engine design tends towards the flexible end of things, as it's easier to drive in mixed road conditions - less changing of gears is needed in order to maintain momentum, which is a major asset when driving a car with a manual gearbox in low-speed traffic. In an automatic, on the other hand, the system changes gear for you and therefore driver convenience is less of an issue, so the engine can be tuned to be more peaky - something which compensates to a large degree for the automatic's inherent inefficiency in the gearing and also increases the speed where optimum efficiency is reached.

(There's another corollory to this: a manual will usually give you better fuel efficiency around town (provided you drive sensibly), but it's less convenient to drive; an automatic will give you better efficiency at faster speeds on the open road but that's also where the automatic's convenience is broadly irrelevent. So an automatic is better for your wallet, and better for the environment, in precisely the situation when you don't actually need automatic transmission, and where you do get the convenience benefit you're paying for it in increased fuel costs and pollution).

Mark

Reply to
Mark Goodge
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The exception which proves the rule is Audi's Multitronic system, a continuously variable ratio transmission which has no need for a torque converter and is more efficient than manual transmission.

I've had mine (one of the first produced) on an A6 Avant and it's performed flawlessly for several years now.

Matti

Reply to
Matti Lamprhey

That can be observed on my Thursday lunch outings with my mate George. If we time things well, we get a smooth run home afterwards around 4pm without delay, but if we are earlier and happen to catch the dreaded afternoon school run, it's a nightmare.

Then during school holidays, most of the day the cars are parked in shopping malls, it's heaven on the roads!

Reply to
Gordon H

GSV Three Minds in a Can writes

Well that contradicts what you said! At a steady 50/60 mph, the computer on my Mondeo will probably gradually creep up to 36 mpg on a level road. At 30/40 mph in top gear it will creep up to 38/39/40 mpg.

Another important factor in steady running is the direction of gradient. Even a gradual slope can soon start the mpg falling.

Reply to
Gordon H

GSV Three Minds in a Can writes

I sometimes switch away from the mpg computer in congested traffic, it's depressing....

Reply to
Gordon H

Alex writes

We live about 3/4 mile apart, she lives near a different part of the border, with the A57 trunk road in between. :-) It would be awkward parking etc.

Reply to
Gordon H

Bitstring , from the wonderful person Gordon H said

What contradicts which?? (Please provide at least some sentence fragments!!).

Yes, but I don't drive at 30/40mph in top gear, historically the cars wouldn't even stay down at 30mph in top. Modern, more flexible, engines might allow auto boxes to change to top at 30mph, but in the old days they'd be in 2nd or 3rd for sure.

Yes, but my (measured, empirical) results all relate to average speed, average gradient and average headwind (I get much better mpg driving SE than heading NW .. usually). There you go - topic is back to wind farms.

8>.
Reply to
GSV Three Minds in a Can

GSV Three Minds in a Can writes

OK, I just meant that you claimed that 50/60 were optimum for mpg, but that drag coefficient was a factor. I suppose it depends when the cross-over takes place to wind resistance being the decider?

:-)

Reply to
Gordon H

The technology behind the congestion charging scheme in London works fine. My main concern is that after a long journey, I could find my self having to phone up about 50 different local authority congestion charging departments to pay money to each of them.

Reply to
Jonathan Bryce

How can an automatic be better on open road when both will be using top gear? Surely the best you can hope for is that both will be the same.

Reply to
Jonathan Bryce

Most GPs are partners in a partnership, so the 40p per mile thing isn't really relevant.

Reply to
Jonathan Bryce

At 20:56:02 on 17/02/2007, Jonathan Bryce delighted uk.finance by announcing:

Firstly, it doesn't 'work fine'. There are problems with it. However, are you seriously suggesting it's suitable for national road tolling?

Reply to
Alex

Bitstring , from the wonderful person Gordon H said

Yep, drag goes up with, iirc, the cube of speed .. but engine efficiency and gearbox efficiency are going up too, so the crossover point (for my sorts of cars) was around 50-60. I can imagine something more streamlined would be more efficient at higher speeds, and a truck would probably be horrible at any speed over 40.

Clearly you get 0 mpg at 0 mph, so the curve is some sort of inverted parabola, with a peak at 50-60 (or 30-40 for your car(s)). Probably back to about 0 MPG at mach5 at sea level .. I didn't have any data points for averages more than 70mph though. 8>.

Reply to
GSV Three Minds in a Can

Nope, they'll just DD your bank account based on what the GPS black box tells them. I doubt the local authorities will get to collect the money, and certainly not keep (much, if any, of) it.

I just have this vague objection to having the government know where my car is every minutes of every day.

40 years ago I would probably have trusted them with that info, but based on the current regime of 'shoot first, ask questions later' and 'arrest them, hold them for XX days and then decide they are innocent', and the sort of warped human rights legislation which means we can't deport foreign thugs, no matter what they do here (whatever happened to matching responsibilities with the rights?) I'm beginning to distrust the folks supposedly in charge with any data at all.
Reply to
GSV Three Minds in a Can

An engine tuned for optimum or "peaky" performance will be more efficient at its own optimum speed than one tuned for a more flexible or "torquey" performance. The most efficient use of an internal combustion engine is to tune it for one particular value of RPM and only ever run it at that speed. That's impractical in real life, at least for cars, so in practice optimum peak efficiency has to be sacrificed somewhat for the sake of acceptable efficiency over a broader range of speeds. One advantage of automatic transmission, though, is that it doesn't have such a great need for flexible performance as a manual (as the system does the hard work of changing gear for you), so the engine in an automatic car can be tuned a bit closer to the optimum. That's what makes it more efficient than a manual at the optimum speed.

(That is, of course, assuming that the engine is indeed tuned differently for automatic transmission. In a cheap car that probably isn't the case, and therefore an automatic will be less efficient overall).

Mark

Reply to
Mark Goodge

At 22:17:22 on 17/02/2007, Mark Goodge delighted uk.finance by announcing:

Tell that to Honda and Toyota.

Reply to
Alex

At 21:36:04 on 17/02/2007, GSV Three Minds in a Can delighted uk.finance by announcing:

What bank account?

Reply to
Alex

Why not? If it works for the self-employed, it works for partners.

Reply to
Ronald Raygun

drag goes up as square of speed. Power to maintain speed against air drag goes up as cube of speed.

Tim.

Reply to
Tim Woodall

My g/f's Nissan Micra 1.0L automatic struggles to give 32mpg overall. My Mondeo manual gives 33+ mpg overall.

Reply to
Gordon H

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