UK debt collection SUCKS ... ... the money from my pocket ...

Aug 15, 2004 13 Replies

... but not from the debtor's!



(Apologies to the Welsh group (whose name I can't remember) who sang that London sucks ...)



I find myself in the unenviable position of being a judgement creditor. Yes, the court gave a judgement in my favour, but now I'm faced with all sorts of bills if I want to collect the money that I'm owed. It seems that debtors can walk away, leaving creditors with lots of bills and nothing is done about it.



So I've been thinking, and I've come up with the following list for serious discussion:



Debt collection problems



(1) The courts should enforce the orders for information: as it stands, according to a solicitor to whom I spoke, a person with a website who won a judgement but can't enforce it, and the court staff themselves, nothing is done to check on the stuff debtors say when they give information. They can and do declare themselves to have no property, no bank accounts, no anything, when it isn't true. A judgement debtor should be made to bring in original documentation that supports what he says about his finances and this should be checked against his tax records. If a judgement debtor can't support what he says with original documentation, that should be grounds for arrest. If there isn't enough room in prisons, then tag the debtor and make him have to report to the police once a week.



(2) There should be an order that could be made against the debtor's National Insurance number, that, for a specified length of time, say six months or even a year, that would allow a creditor to take money from any bank account that the debtor has. Further, all a debtor's property should be tied to some identification number so that, say, if he hasn't any money in the bank, but has a house, the order would allow the creditor to put a charge against the house. As it is, the creditor has to find out, by himself, whether the debtor has property and has to find whether the debtor has a bank account or is owed money. Further, the third party order only freezes the bank account for a short period of time and if the creditor guesses the wrong time to use the order, he won't get any money: this is just an obscene lottery.



(3) There should be a national register which shows the number of successful claims made against businesses and the number of complaints made to Trading Standards against businesses. Bad or incompetent businesses should not be able to hide their deeds behind the Data Protection Act. Bad management practices in this country will not change until we stop letting bad managers get away with things.



(4) People should not be allowed to 'max out' their credit cards, etc, then go bankrupt: from my reading of the new bankruptcy law, the behaviour of a person right before bankruptcy is now taken into account, but from what I have seen on uk.legal, the CAB still advises people to 'max out' their credit cards, etc, so I am not certain whether this part of the law is being enforced. If it isn't, it should be.



(5) Claims involving unfair contract terms or business practices should automatically be referred to the OFT if the claim is won. As it is, the OFT only finds out about such claims if someone makes a separate complaint to the OFT. Further, The OFT should be given much more power to stop businesses that are using unfair contract terms. As it is, the OFT can find that almost all of a business' terms are unfair, and the business sends a letter to the OFT saying the terms will be withdrawn (an informal undertaking) and then waltzes off and uses exactly the same business terms with impunity.



(6) Bailiffs have, as I understand it, the power to force access to business premises but not to individual debtors' homes. Sole traders who work in their homes should not be able, if the debt is incurred through their business, to hide behind the individual debtor's home rule. They must not be able to behave like a business when that's advantageous compared to being an individual, and also behave like an individual when *that's* advantageous. If it's a business debt, business debt recovery rules should apply.



General problems with courts



(1) Courts should also start enforcing the statements of truth on court forms: those found lying on the court forms should be done for perjury. As it is, an individual can say anything on a court form and nothing is done about even obvious lies.



(2) Small claims brought by a consumer against any business, whether or not it is a limited company, should be heard in the consumer's court. As it is, a consumer who has a claim against a sole trader has to go to the sole trader's court, as if that trader were simply an individual and not running a business. This tends to make it expensive to bring claims against businesses that are not limited companies, and thus limits the ability of consumers to redress problems.



(3) The outcome of small claims cases should be published in local newspapers and on a website.



(4) If an individual, either claimant or defendant, doesn't show up to a hearing, unless they have provable good cause, they should be fined for wasting the court's time. Yes, I realise that not showing up almost always means that the side who does the no show will lose, but given that the court has much more powers to collect its fines, this power might concentrate the minds of those who fight a claim all the way and then just don't show up in court, which wastes everyone's time.



Let me know what you think.



Cheers,


Ok, that first bit sounds just about ok. Though I would insist that once information is accepted, the creditor should stick with it. Not keep badgering people when info has already been supplied aboout finances.

Any idea how that would affect priority debts? I'm fairly sure the priority people (mortgage/rent, council tax, utility bills) would want their money first. Take before they get their hands on it, and you could cause a whole host of problems.

Not come across that as such. But complaints are perhaps useful, maybe with time limit?

People tend to max out anyway before getting into difficulty. Using one lot of credit to pay other lots. Been there, done that. If you are about to go bankrupt, its very unlikely you'll have hundreds or thousands of pounds available to spend on cards anyway.

Who are the biggest unfair terms or business practices companies? Seems like the banks and credit card issuers are at or near the top of the list. Good idea though.

Simpler to just say that people can't work from home. Simple solution - I'll work from the car.

Seriously though - many businesses do not need seperate premises - it would be expense thats unaffordable or not needed.

No easy solution - as any forcing of home premises used for business would be open to being increased to forcing into any home.

That would be a good idea.

Hmmm.....possible. Only if you make absolutely sure the other side even knows about the court case though. As in not rely on post office to deliver summons.

Martin <

Just wanted to comment in general especially on point 5.

If we were to start penalising in court any business that has bad practices it would "setting a thief to catch a thief" as generally accepted is the fact that the slowest payers by far are government organisations.

Setting the courts which are theoretically independent to enforce laws made by people who are not independent (Government) can not work.

I agree that you are talking mainly about non payers and the government organisation do as a rule pay but plenty of SME are put out of business by late payers.

In general I see where you are going but the only area I would even start to agree with would be enforcing the powers of bailiffs to seize goods belonging to an individual. If an individual runs up debts they should lose their assets to pay it off. It should make no difference if this individual is an employee, sole trader or director of ltd company his/her personal assets should all be up for grabs including any pension funds.

Talking about Credit Cards etc is fantasy IMHO. This country is disappearing under regulations and people forget or refuse to accept the rule of being responsible for your own actions.

As for having a database as such of people assets well this should not take long if Blair and Blunkett carry on with changing what they expect from ID cards. The databases will I am sure cover all sorts of "Security" facts such as where all your money is, who your first partner was, where you regularly go the toilet etc.

Andy

[snip]

As long as the information is trustworthy - tax records, bank statements, and so on - the creditor won't need to badger the debtor. The object is to make it hard for the debtor to hide money and other assets.

Spreading the effectiveness of the third party order over a period of time actually makes the order *more* compatible with priority debts. As I understand the third party order, it arrives at the bank (say) and they hand over whatever part of the debt is available to be handed over straight away. If that means that the direct debit for the rent / council tax / phone bill / etc. bounces the next day, tough. The change I'm proposing could be structured so that the third party order somewhat resembles the current attachment of earnings order.

Trading Standards departments refuse to give out information about the level of complaints against a business, citing the DPA as the reason. In addition, the way that TS works, I must complain to my local TS office about the behaviour of a business far away. How do I know that the TS offices communicate sufficiently that my complaint is collated against the business in question? Based on my last conversation with TS, I have no confidence that complaining to them does any good at all.

Perhaps, but the point is that the CAB is advising people to finish the job of maxing out their sources of credit, and this doesn't seem like responsible advice in the run up to bankruptcy.

All I'm suggesting is that the bankruptcy court should apply the rules that the debtor's behaviour is considered when deciding things like how long until the bankruptcy is discharged. These rules are there already - the courts should apply them.

If you are really interested in the sorts of things that the OFT deals with, have a look at their unfair contract terms bulletins. Start at:

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Look for the case reports on Unfair Contract Terms.

When I started looking through these, I was expecting to see a fair few dealing with insurance companies, but apparently not. Take, for instance, bulletin 14:

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They say that insurance cases are relatively rare, and that the 3 cases in that month's report is very unusual.

For a priceless example of unfair terms, consider case report 14 of bulletin 14, where a residential care home had a provision that allowed them to retain the resident's furniture on his death, unless agreed in writing *at the time of admission*.

I'm not trying to punish sole trader debtors for using their homes as business premises. Far from it. Rather, I want to clarify the ambiguity which allows them to use their homes as shields for their business debts.

[snip]

If the defendant never receives the original claim document (accompanied by the N9B defence form and friends), the courts don't even bother with a hearing. It's only when the defendant files a response that we get into allocation questionnaires and hearings.

If that means that the direct debit for the rent / council

I don't think that's very nice now is it. Your debtor should not be faced with losing his home or going to prison just because he owes you money. Who do you think you are.

Rob

Who do I th---- Spreading the effectiveness of the third party order over a period of time actually makes the order *more* compatible with priority debts. As I understand the third party order, it arrives at the bank (say) and they hand over whatever part of the debt is available to be handed over straight away. If that means that the direct debit for the rent / council tax / phone bill / etc. bounces the next day, tough. The change I'm proposing could be structured so that the third party order somewhat resembles the current attachment of earnings order.

----

Hmm, let's see. "As I understand the third party order, ..." Sounds like a description of the current state of affairs to me. "The change I'm proposing ..." Sounds like a suggested new change to me.

Perhaps an intelligent person might have read what I intended - that the current system is less than ideal.

Ho hum.

Pay attention to what I said... My point was that at the moment Trading Standards won't tell you about complaints about businesses, and they cite the Data Protection Act as justification. I don't want this to continue.

Then I suppose we'd better throw away the courts right now, as they are already enforcing laws made by yadda, yadda, yadda.

Or did I miss something?

If you don't want disputes between people to be settled exclusively with baseball bats and iron bars, we need some sort of courts, and *somebody* has to make the laws that the courts enforce.

I was actually talking *exclusively* about non-payers and getting money back from companies / traders who don't perform on their contracts, and not about late payment at all.

If the individual doesn't let the bailiff into the property, the bailiff has ***NO*** powers to seize goods. Bailiffs are allowed to force entry into business premises, which leads to the ambiguity that I alluded to: a business (sole trader working from/at home) can hide behind his status as an individual and refuse entry to the bailiffs, even though it is a

*business* debt that he owes.

You're a fine one to complain about the government being draconian and intrusive (see below). Not even Bliar and Plunk-it are suggesting that

*all* of a person's assets - including the tools of his trade, the clothes on his back, and his pension funds - are up for grabs.

Um, er, wasn't I suggesting that the CAB's advice to be even more irresponsible is a very bad idea? Didn't I say that the courts / receivers should use their power to take this kind of behaviour into consideration? Or did you just decide to ignore what I wrote and have a private rant?

I wasn't proposing a database of people's assets. I was merely proposing that the *existing* database of tax information should be made available in this situation, and also that some form of identity number (the NI number is good enough for most cases) should be available so that the courts can query the banks' existing databases of account information.

"SteveR" wrote

The problem with including pension funds here, is that some people make provision for their retirement using alternative forms of investment - houses, ISA's, directly-owned shares, gold bars even! So, if "pension funds" are immune from being "up for grabs", then the assets described in the previous sentence (and others, including cash!) would need to be immune ...

One of the reasons that such protection exists is this sort of information can be used in more than one way. One of the points of the Data Protection Act was to give individuals some privacy. In my opinion the action of a few as detailed by you does not justify removing any of the protection offered by the Data Protection Act. Businesses as Individuals are entitled to privacy providing they pay their taxes. I do not advertise in any way nor in fact do my customers want me to be noticed. I already have to release information to the taxman, this I accept. I am not happy to release information that is not essential to anyone else for any reason.

If someone wants to do business with me they can run a credit check using one of the tried and tested methods. If they fail to bother to do this and get caught out AFTER the event IMHO that shows they are not taking proper care in the running of their business or are in a few cases plain unlucky.

I have to say it was a private rant about the Government I am inherently anti the present Government.

I am however a believer that MOST of business is worked on trust, there will always be scammers and con artists out there, unless the Government regulates everything there always will be. I would prefer the Government to stay out of my business and accept the responsibility for my own actions.

In more than one case I have accepted that taking the loss is the way to go. I move on and make new business rather than worrying about past losses.

In summary I do not accept the ideas you put forward apart from the one that Bailiffs should have more power to collect (if sanctioned by the courts) debt regardless of private or business, the idea that a debt is different is IMHO ludicrous.

Government should look at taking taxes, regulating for basic health and safety and then stay out of peoples way. They should not run nor need to run databases of information of any sort and if they do run them they should be released to the smallest possible amount of people which certainly would not include civil servants such as the DTI etc nor the general public.

Andy

Many thanks Steve. I'll have another think.

Martin <

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ But gold is a rotten investment! The price is unpredictable, but has (on average) been going down over the last 25 years (from the high of nearly $800 an ounce to the current level of close to $400). Holdings of gold attract no interest, and in fact incur monthly storage costs, so their net value in the future is pretty much guaranteed to be lower than in the present.

"SteveR" wrote

"Past performance is not necessarily a guide to the future..."!!!

assets described in

If someone, for *whatever* reason, invests in gold bars (or anything else) for their pension provision - shouldn't they have the same security as someone else investing in "traditional" pension funds?

True, but the point about storage costs being paid by the owner rather than interest being paid to the owner still applies.

As it happens, pension funds (at least partially) *are* up for grabs when the Official Receiver comes calling. Check out the information on

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home of the Insolvency Service.

A pension fund is protected from bankrupcy, unless there has been some fraud (e.g. the contributions are partly or wholly the proceeds of such)

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