UK debt crisis is imminent. What happens to the economy ?

Whats happening to Gordon Browns "economic miracle" ?

A huge part of the UK economy is now financed by consumer debt largely from MEWing on equity in houses and use of credit cards. With a debt crisis imminent what are the prospects for the economy ?...........

The Independent

Consumers teeter on the edge of borrowing precipice

As banks warn that defaults are rising, the advice agencies are gearing up for action. David Prosser reports

Published : 04 June 2005

HBOS this week became the third bank in 10 days to warn that the number of consumers defaulting on debt repayments has risen sharply this year. The Halifax Bank of Scotland group says that its bad-debt provisions will increase markedly this year. It is now tightening its lending requirements to try to get on top of the problem.

HBOS's warning follows similar alerts from both Barclays and HSBC last week, amid increasing concern that Britons may finally be running into trouble in repaying the £1trn of consumer debt now outstanding.

The Bank of England's latest consumer-credit figures, also published this week, show that borrowers are continuing to spend more on credit cards and personal loans. And, while last month's rise was the smallest for four years, some debt experts believe that many borrowers may have passed the point where showing some restraint will get them out of trouble.

The three banks' warnings are the latest signs this year that a debt crisis is imminent. In April, for example, the Government announced that 37,900 people went bankrupt over the year to the end of March, a

30 per cent increase on the previous year. And figures from Credit Suisse First Boston suggest that borrowers will default on £4.5bn of bank loans and credit-card debt this year.

The defaults come as people struggle with higher mortgage bills than a year ago - there were five increases in the Bank of England base rate over the 18 months to last August. A reduction in the number of interest-free deals on offer from credit-card lenders has also prevented people moving debt around so easily, which may previously have masked the extent of their borrowing.

For now, lenders are not panicking. Barclaycard's Ian Barber says: "You will always see ups and downs in bad debt figures during the economic cycle, but we believe that the current levels are manageable in the absence of significant interest-rate rises or a sharp increase in unemployment."

However, the increases in bad debt at banks such as Barclays and HSBC are larger than those analysts would expect to see when the economy is not in recession. HSBC economist John Butler warns: "Consumers are now very sensitive to the slightest shock. What is worrying is that this has happened when unemployment is still very low." One problem may be that many people are actually worse off than economic indicators suggest - high-profile job losses at companies such as Rover, for example, have yet to feed through into the official figures.

But debt advisers are concerned about the type of people in difficulty. John Fairhurst of the charity Payplan says: "Debt problems are no longer just the result of a change in circumstances, such as a relationship break-up or losing a job. We're seeing more people who've just been spending a little too much each month over an extended period and who find that this is now catching up with them."

Malcolm Hurlston of the Consumer Credit Counselling Service adds: "Broadly speaking, people adapt to changes in their circumstances more quickly than the experts predict and, in fact, real incomes have continued to rise this year. Even so, it is clear that consumer spending is slowing and that many of our clients are finding it even harder to make repayments."

The CCCS took 180,000 calls from worried borrowers last year, and is currently hiring enough new staff to be able to cope with 300,000 calls in 2006. Payplan says it is also hiring, with the number of calls it receives having increased rapidly over the past six months.

What frustrates debt advisers is that many borrowers only realise they are in trouble when a crisis point arrives. By taking action earlier, it is possible to avoid disaster. Anyone struggling to stay on top of debt should talk to one of several free advice services. They may be able to help you resolve the problem by sorting out your finances.

There may be obvious ways to reduce the cost of debt, for example, or you may be missing out on state benefits. These agencies can also speak to creditors on your behalf, in order to renegotiate what you pay each month.

CCCS, 0800 138 1111; National Debtline, 0808 808 4000; Payplan, 0800

085 4298

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Reply to
crowleyalastair
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Talk about dealing with the effects whilst ignoring the causes!

Get out of debt - stay out of debt. Only way to go...

l
Reply to
leðurblaka

ah well....fun is guaranteed!!

i feel great sympathy and pity for the banks that are once more caught with bad debts..... get out the violins....

well, at least they act rationally eventually.....

the 'understanding' of the writer is typical of the 'independent' you owe the bank £500....you have problems.... you owe the bank £1 trillion....the bank has problems....

and why not....they make a judgement call.... that is how free markets work.....

iow the rate of high interest borrowing is on the way down..... that is.....'down'......which is different from 'up' that'll bugger up the bank profits

i always like articles that refer to 'some'.....so much less precise than sums....

what is one of those????

gloriana....the sheer awfulness of it....that's nearly 1 in 1,500..... it must be the end of the world....

4 is a 30% rise over 3......nearly!

how dreadful....that is nearly 1/2% of the idiots who are daft enuf to carry high interest credit card loans... surely this must be the end of civilisation as we know it

well, naturally....inflation takes at least 18 months to 2 years to filter through. so with rises not hurting before the election it was safe to do that....

life is hard....and then you die.... surely no-one with an ounce of sense imagined the 'free' rates would go on after they had idiotsville caught in the net.....

but the 'independent' is of course....those idiots live in a permanent panic....comes of being innumerate socialists.....

how boring....

ah, the banks are fat and happy....but they don't believe they can squeeze much more from the lemons....

don't worry....if major banks go bankrupt again the government will bail out their clients with your taxes....as ever...

"we've squeezed until the pips squeak...i fear they are starting to squeak"..

ah yes, the canard that a major company supplied vast amounts of 'jobs'... why did he bring up rover?

the big green ones....

awful....really awful....now they'll have to spend a little less for a while....at least they can enjoy their hi fi set....or their plasma tv...or their bigger house while they squeeze on the visits to granny and the hols in majorca for a while....

as the violins play on.....

how many calls did each 'worried borrower' make....perhaps they were feeling lonely and wanted to moan at someone....

more jobs for all those unemployed who haven't appeared yet.... isn't life just hell....

another entrepreneur expands the business to employ those poor rover exes....

ah yes 'rapidly'....another good word that saves you having to think or count....

if that didn't happen how would 'debt advisors' get employed?

'disaster'...no ice creams for a week....

under pain of mortal sin....

and pigs 'may' fly..... who pays for these 'debt advisors'....who trains them.....we must be told! is it the banks?

incredible...if you're in debt.....no probs.... just come to us and we'll steal some more money from those who do not profligately run up debts...

ah....you mean so's they can keep squeezing you at just below the level at which you starve... or worst still, the level at which you declare bankrupcy...and the poor sods at the bank can't squeeze you any more...

i must 'phone them right away....

who writes this trash.... i do hope it's not you!!

Reply to
abelard

On 4 Jun 2005 04:59:41 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.co.uk mysteriously appeared thru the usenet mist to inform us thus...

It's morphing into a mirage and will end in tears. Previous Labour attempts to engineer the economy have always failed. As always, it will be the taxpayer left to pick up the pieces.

Well we can't use the R word because Brown-Stuff says he's created an economy with ongoing stable growth, so.....take your pick!

My heart bleeds for HBOS.

Ooh those poor borrowers. Surely they didn't borrow too much...

Ah well, when unemployment rises.....

As if it wouldn't.

Poor things. Try taking on a 2nd job to pay off the debts.

"Help me. I've borrowed too much and can't repay."

Reply to
hummingbird

On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 18:23:20 +0200, abelard mysteriously appeared thru the usenet mist to inform us thus...

You seem to have overlooked the small fact lardy that the £1 trillion of *consumer* debt is not with one borrower but spread across millions ...probably into small sums of £10k or less. That's exactly why banks like consumer debt so much -- it's widely spread.

Except that it's taxpayers who so often pick up the final cost of sorting it out.

Your memory is failing you again lardy. Must be the dementia. Remember Major's negative equity crises?

ZZZZZZzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzZzzzzzzzZZZZZz

[yards of pro-Brown-Stuff tripe binned]
Reply to
hummingbird

"abelard" wrote

You're rather missing the point. People going bankrupt represent the extreme tail of a distribution curve. If the end of the curve is rising then it is a pretty safe bet that there is a major problem elsewhere in the curve too.

The issue is surely that under Labour the economy, despite being supposedly booming, is remarkably brittle. Governemnt spending is running out of control, the balance of payments is in record deficit, and record numbers of people are going bankrupt despite there being no obvious economic downturn to cause this. The less-than-obvious cause, of course, is the fact that we've actually been in recession for 8 years and only the growth in personal debt has hidden this - until now.

Reply to
John Redman

no...i have not 'overlooked' it... the banks have several times gone bankrupt in real terms in the uk from allowing over-extension of debt....to the degree individual banks have lost billions at a time....

indeed...as stated in my post....

why was it 'a crisis' then buzzy?

you really should try to stick to simpler posts...

Reply to
abelard

and what pray is 'a major problem'?

and how will you define a breakage of that 'remarkably brittle' 'economy'?

where is this 'place' called 'out of control'?

on a constant unit base or on a steadily inflating base?

this is flummery...the people are still eating...and even consuming..... what exactly are you claiming to be 'receding'..... what do you desire that you do not have?

Reply to
abelard

The population of this country is about 58m. So that means on average about £17,000 per person. Some of these people are children, or have other reasons why they wouldn't be able to borrow, so they can be excluded, increasing the average for those left. Others could borrow, but don't (like me), and this will also reduce the number of people in debt, and the average debt of those that are.

Reply to
Jonathan Bryce

and to give it serious context...

£17,000 debt can be serviced at 10% for £1,700 per year.... no-one of intelligence pays 10% in current conditions.... those of so little intelligence as to hold credit card debt must be expected to contain a percentage of high risk borrowers.... that is a *part* of why they pay higher rates....

a normal mortgage is far higher than £17,000

regards...

Reply to
abelard

Liquidity

An income in old age.

Reply to
Maria

over the long run your position improved despite you once worrying about your 'negative equity'....

you already get that in the uk....so, i must assume you mean you want more.... the op claimed the uk has been in recession for 8 years...without of course defining recession... meanwhile state pensions slowly rise.... a means tested 30% has been added i think..... there are all manner of other bits you can get if you beg properly....

meanwhile an increasing proportion 'own' housing....which can be liquified.....

a large proportion of the population are farmed and managed like sheep... they tend to be called 'employees' or said to 'have a job'..... increasingly this class is becoming government clients.....

sheep do not control their lives or their supply of grass.... farmers have greater control and tend to put by for their latter years....

what else would you expect?

you, as i understand it, are transferring to the farmer class :-)

regards....

Reply to
abelard

"abelard" wrote

  • sigh * If 30% more people are bankrupt during what we are told is not a recession, it is plainly the visible end of a debt crisis. Self-inflicted by the mug punters in question, but deliberately encouraged by Brown, who needs those people getting themselves into unaffordable debt to maintain the illusion of prosperity.

A 50% increase in taxation accompanied by a decline in public sector productivity constitutes loss of control.

Hardly matters given that we're supposedly enjoying a healthy economy. Healthy economy and unprecedented balance of paymenst deficit? Yeah right.

Since 1997, debt has increased by 6% of GDP per year while overall growth has been around 3%. Had there been no increase in debt the economy would have shrunk.

Reply to
John Redman

there is no election now for 4 years....why would he care? the number of people in problems looks small to me.....

britain is moving towards a clientalist state.....

again i ask you....50% in constant units or in inflating currency?

50% increase in what taxation? certainly not in state take as a %age of gdp.....

it matters a great deal if you intend to make your case effectively...

why do you care about a balance of payments problem?

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which debt? personal debt? company debt? government debt? balance of payments? again in what units? constant or inflated?

why? how do you assess 'the size of the economy'....

regards....

Reply to
abelard

Sky is turning dark with pidgeons coming home to roost -

I thought last months shared equity stunt was a bit of a suprise showing they are still trying to keep the debt beast alive.

Simon T.

Reply to
Simon T.

No my liquidity in particular...everybody.

I don't believe that there will be a state pension that is worth anything by the time I retire - in fact I don't believe there will be a retirement age either! At the moment, I'm counting on working till I drop.

Indeed - look at me. I have 60K equity in my home - what use is it? I can't sell because I can't afford to buy anywhere else, and I can't rent because I don't have the right kind of income to rent - they want me to put down 6 months deposit (around £4000), plue, there are 6 houses in my road which have been up for sale for at least 6 months, in one of the cheaper areas of the country. They are not selling.. Also, athough my house has been mortgaged for 15 years, my endowments are not even going to pay 60% of the loan - I am about to convert to a CR mortgage which will cost double what I am paying now.

Equity is meaningless if you cannot release it in some way.

Their subsistence debt is increasing much faster than their pay increases.

You have to have something to put by, in order to put it by.

I have nothing to put by - the more I earn, the more I pay out, but now people are not spending so quickly, I am earning less, but paying more out. It's not looking very lucrative at the moment.

Reply to
Maria

In message , abelard writes

A degree of silence!!

Reply to
Aramis Gunton

"Maria" wrote

I reckon that before very long a law will be passed which will compare your mortgage to the value of your home, and if you have more than a cetain amount of equity, you will be denied a state pension. Labour has never forgiven those council house tenants who bought their homes and voted them out out of power for 18 years; this will be payback time.

Reply to
John Redman

On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 20:42:55 +0100, Jonathan Bryce mysteriously appeared thru the usenet mist to inform us thus...

As said, I expect the debt is very widely spread with a lot of variation between the lowest and highest amounts. Do you think otherwise?

Reply to
hummingbird

everybody is in a different position.... liquidity when? when you are 90? are you liquid if you get your dole on time?

certainly a reasonable way to approach life in a socialist state....

what about bulgaria?

if you sold you'd have a damn sight more that 4k

so...the prices asked are too high....i hope your calcs aren't based on non-selling property

all such schemes are a rip off afaiac...

cheap rate?

it is there for the future until you do decide to release it..... you can release it if you choose....whether that is a good option for you i know not

what do you mean by the term 'their subsistence debt'?

true....but you do apparently currently have 'something by'.....

such are the problems if you are a farmer.... as long as you are not losing week by week....

regards...

Reply to
abelard

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