Visa chargback claim rejected

In message , Mike Halmarack writes

I would start with Orange, they are saying that the phone has been reported lost or stolen but you have the phone and are now the legitimate owner presumably with proof of purchase. It could be that they have made a mistake, someone else has made a mistake in reporting the number or any other variation. There is even a possibility that someone is trying to claim insurance on it.

If you can show that you have the phone and purchased it then Orange should check with the person reporting it lost and ensure that they have the facts right. It does seem strange that it has been reported four months later.

If this does not work then you need to pursue the seller for compensation. Depending on whether it is an individual or a business it may be difficult to enforce. If the phone is really stolen then maybe you could contact the Police who may be interested.

Today I've done the complete circuit twice with most of the fellow participants in this sale and purchase ,Orange, the original seller, eBay, Paypal, Visa and back to Orange.

Those who have replied at all (Everyone but the seller) say it's absolutely nothing to do with them and as far as Orange is concerned,nothing to do with me either.

I can continue to argue my position by letter to the Orange Correspondence Department if I like but I've been assured that I'll receive the same response.

Some of the participants mentioned above are doing rather well out of this and similar situations. I don't seem to be in that group.

In message , Mike Halmarack writes

I suppose that it's not uncommon for people to abuse the insurance on their phone by selling it, then later on reporting it as stolen to get a new phone. If that is the case here then Orange and their Insurance should be interested but perhaps that is just too much trouble for them.

I would still follow this up with Orange as they are the ones barring the phone on the basis of someone else's word. Write to them and tell them that you purchased the phone and want to register it. You can show proof of purchase and are now the legitimate owner.

As it has taken four months to report the phone stolen it suggests that it is possibly an Insurance fiddle on the part of the seller as if it had actually been lost or stolen one would have expected it to have been reported much sooner than that.

I wonder what would happen if you made a joint county court claim against the seller, Orange, Visa, Paypal and eBay. It would be up to each to proffer their excuses. How would a judge view a claim?

In message , Fredxx writes

If it is true that the phone has been stolen then the seller would be liable, if the seller is pulling a fast one then they should still be found liable. It all points to the seller but they may not be easy to get to.

Orange seem to be taking the view that if someone says the phone is stolen then it is and they blacklist it regardless of the possibility that the seller may be committing insurance fraud and defrauding the purchaser. They must have seen that before.

The alternatives if Orange won't play ball are the Police or a Court claim. It might be worth trying uk.telecom.mobile and uk.legal.moderated to see if anyone there has previous experience of similar instances.

Interesting idea, a sort of David V the Goliath gang.

Thanks for all your good advice on this. I'll try uk.legal.moderated as you suggest because For one thing, I'd be interested to know who decides what constitutes a suitable cause for Visa chargeback.

This is logical but some people care very little for their possessions and may not even report them missing at all. For example my children's school has several unclaimed phones, including expensive ones, in lost property!

I wonder if the seller left it this long so that you can't make a claim for refund via paypal?

The courts do. But the credit card company will know that 99.9% of the time they reject a claim the customer wont have the resources to test the issue in court.

tim

The credit card companies' argument is that they provide a credit to the appropriate value to your paypal account, and their responsibility ends there, your payment by paypal is a separate transaction they have nothing to do with. Paypal is not a credit card processor.

I don't think that's necessarily true. One way of paying through paypal is as you describe, that is to say that seller and buyer both have paypal accounts, and the buyer moves funds into his paypal account using his credit card or a direct debit link to his bank account, then a paypal transfer is made from the buyer's to the seller's paypal account, from which the seller can then move the funds out later.

But there is also another way, where only the seller has a paypal account, and buyer hasn't. This way funds go straight from the buyer's credit card into the seller's paypal account, i.e. paypal operates just like a "credit card processor".

If the phone really was stolen, then he is in possession of stolen property and isn't the legitimate owner, even if he does have proof of purchase.

It may not necessarily have taken four months to report it stolen. It could be that it just took Orange that long to process the report and get around to adding the IMIE to the blacklist database.

Chris

Wouldn't the mobile phone companies want some kind of evidence that the report came from the legitimate owner/user of a phone before blacklisting it? If not, that would seem to open up lots of opportunities for the system to be abused. eg jealous ex-partners blacklisting their ex's phone out of spite. Sacked employees blacklisting their manager's phone after being fired from a company etc.

Chris

In message , Chris Blunt writes

I know that Orange are not very efficient these days but I would still be surprised if it did take them four months to get round to listing it. I doubt that they will tell him who the owner who reported it stolen was so that he can check so what do you suggest that he does?

Isn't it the same situation as if I paid by Visa a Travel Agent to provide a holiday with holiday company A. The holiday company fails to provide that holiday but I can't ask for a chargeback because Visa paid the Travel agent, not the holiday company?

What if on the date of purchase the phone wasn't stolen but only became so 4 months after purchase, because the seller then chose to make it so?

Orange won't tell me anything much. They say this is due to the Data Protection Act. Perhaps If I give them all the information I have regarding the seller's identitiy and address that might shift the situation into a more active state?