new young widow - joint acct logistics

ps56k wrote: : Following along in this family saga.... : my wife's sister's husband was recently killed in a car crash.

: Wondering about the logistics of all the existing financial accounts, : which all are setup as the usual Joint -

: SO - what exactly should you do to modify these accounts - (or not)

: Joint checking/Savings - in both names, guessing IRS reporting SSN is : deceased : Joint mortgage - in both names, ... same - 1098 probably SSN of deceased : Joint Deed - can't recall, is there a Deed held by bank or just Clerk with : Lien ? : Joint car owner titles - no car loans

: Joint investment at Raymond James - : Joint investment at Schwab : Joint investment at Fidelity - IRA and 403b - : Joint investment at Vanguard : Joint investment at TRowe

: Savings Bonds -

: SSN bene claims ?

: -- : / _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ : No Good Deed - : Goes Unpunished

I am sorry to hear of this terrible event in your family. Unfortunately, I can't give you all the answers, but a few I do know. when I lost my husband 3 years ago all joint accounts became mine. IN most cases, like the checking account at the band, I went in and opened a new one in my name , but all the money in the old account went into it. I had a mm account with fidelity(as well as several others there) that I used as my major checking account adn had several auto-pays there. Fidelity was able to use the same account and number fore that account so I didn;t have to change all the puto-pays, a towering nusience!. I am still using the checks with both our names on them adn just cross of f my husbands name each time I write a check and dry a little.

The banks, invertment companies like Fidelity and Ratmond james shoudl be aboue to give advice on what to do and alsoto do much of the paperwork tht has to be done. IIRC his IRA, assuming she is the benefisciary, will go into hers or e held in her name in a separate account. We were both already receiving payments form the iras adn the benefits were recalculated for my age, so I get less each year on a minimum distribution plan that hw did as he was older. this shoudl not affect young poele who are still utting money in .

Contact the companies and broker for what echnically has to be done with the paperwork. I would assume the bank olding the mortgate (who nows who is actually holding it now) shoudl also be able to hel with the paperwork. It is a dreadful business to try to get all this in order at a time when one is totally wiped out. If there is a lawyer handling the estate, s/he should be able to do a fair amount of paperwork stuff too, if not, see how much you can get the financial companies to help.

Remember that any accounts or stocks etc held jointly or that pass to her as part of her half of the estate she is legaly required to getto avoid any Estate taxes do not get a new basis, not does joint ownership of the house, etc, so there is no step up in basis for the house.

Ihope this may be helpful. I speak,not as an accountant or lawyer here, but just as a fellow sufferer in one of the ost terrible events that happens ina human life, articularly when someone is so young.

Wendy Bakere.

My deepest sympathy on your family's loss. The short answer to all these questions is "call them and ask." There are a few general things to keep in mind.

1. Get a dozen more copies of the death certificate than you think you're going to need. It's like standing on the street smoking a cigarette; everybody wants one.
2. Stop number one is the attorney who prepared his will (or the current family attorney). (S)he will know the ins and outs of local things like real estate and car titles.

2a. No will? Learn from this if necessary. I had preached for years about getting papers in order, but of course hadn't done my own. Then my mother died. I found that coping with things was so much simplified because my parents' papers were in order. Got mine done post haste.

1. If your sister-in-law isn't up to the phone calls have your wife (or some other adult woman) make them, pretending to be the widow. It's so much easier, as I learned quickly when making the calls after my mother's death. Switched from bereaved son to bereaved husband and it was smooth sailing thereafter.
2. The goal is to get everything retitled Be careful with setting up joint or TOD accounts. There are tax implications to doing so when it's with a non-spouse. Don't forget things like utilities. I had trouble as a friend's executor because his father, who had been dead for 10 years, was still listed as the account holder at a number of places.
3. You'll want the reporting SSN changed if necessary.
4. For all joint investments, record the value of each as of the date of death. This information will be needed if the widow sells the asset. Don't forget the home.

The IRS has several publications that could be useful:

559--General information for survivors and executors 575--Retirement plans--401(k)'s, etc. 590--IRAs

Phil Marti VITA/TCE Volunteer Clarksburg, MD

I'm so sorry for your loss.

When you say "joint" do you mean technically joint, or just that there are more than one name on the account? There are more than one way for two or more people to have their names on the same account.

If the accounts are truly joint, that means, when one dies, ownership of the account automatically transfers to the surviving joint tenant. That designation actually supersedes a provision in a will that tries to give away an interest in the account, and those accounts do not need to go through probate.

So the accounts can simply be left as they are. Or the surviving joint tenant can close the accounts and open new ones in her name alone. With a certified copy of the death certificate some banks may take the other name off the existing accounts.

If the accounts earn interest, that income is normally assessed one-half to each owner until one dies. A final income tax return is due on that person's estate - I forget how many months after the date of death, but someone will come along soon and tell us what that is.

If you have any more specific questions, please ask them here.

Is this true for assets that are Joint Tenants with Right of Survivorshop or Tenants by the Entirety, which is common for real estate? I was under the impression that the survivor became the sole owner without a step-up in basis.

I don't practice in a state that recognizes tenants by the entirety, so I am not familiar with its nuances.

As far as joint tenancy with rights of survivorship, Phil is right, the information should be obtained. But the effect will depend on a number of factors.

With respect to stepped up basis, for spouses and other joint tenants who contributed equally to the purchase of property, the death of one means the other gets stepped up basis in half the property. If one non-spouse contributed more than the other to the purchase, that person will be considered the owner for this purpose, and stepped up basis will be based on the deceased owner's ownership percentage.

In some cases actuarial values may come into play, though I don't remember the details of this at the moment.

John Levine wrote: : >6. For all joint investments, record the value of each as of the date of death. This : >information will be needed if the widow sells the asset. Don't forget the home.

: Is this true for assets that are Joint Tenants with Right of : Survivorshop or Tenants by the Entirety, which is common for real : estate? I was under the impression that the survivor became the sole : owner without a step-up in basis.

: -- : Regards, : John Levine, snipped-for-privacy@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", : Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail.

That's what happened to me, while the stocks that my husband held in his own account did go up in basis.

Wendy Baker

To the IRA situation if any - A young widow has two choices. Retitle to her name, and it's her IRA, just like any other IRA money. And just like any other IRA money, a 10% penalty if withdrawals before

59-1/2. (Let's ignore the convoluted Sec 72(t) possibility)

If she needs money sooner, she can treat it as an inherited IRA. She would have to take RMDs each year, or can take above that amount. This provides a low forced withdrawal but penalty free especially if she needs to take more.

I've seen too many brokers/banks just shift the money, and take away the option I suggested.