Any Input VAT on bank charges?

Basic VAT lesson: (a) If you have an invoice from the bank showing that you have been charged VAT then you can probably claim it. (b) If you have an invoice from the bank which does not show any VAT then it is probable that you have not been charged VAT and so have nothing to reclaim.

Basic VAT lesson 2:

Most of the people giving VAT advice in newsgroups don't understand the basic principles of VAT so, unless they quote chapter and verse, take it with a pinch of salt...

It is a very valid point though - to claim you need a VAT receipt, and other than for small amounts that must detail the VAT charged. If you don't have a VAT receipt you can't claim and if you do you can.

The grey area is VAT inclusive receipts for small amounts where a total is shown and it is not clear if VAT is charged or not. As an example, train tickets are not VATed but they do not say so. Why would they. They also do not say VAT is charged. (There are a few other cases where VAT is charged and stated but cannot be claimed - beware of buying cars and antiques!).

Of course in reality you won't have an invoice from the bank at all, it just appears on your statement. In general (almost universally in fact in the UK) bank charges do no have VAT on them.

Am I correct in saying that rail tickets don't have a VAT number on them?

Generally you can only claim the VAT element of a VAT inclusive price (less than 100) where their VAT number is quoted on the receipt.

Correct, which is also a good clue!

However there are receipts which quote a VAT number, do not otherwise mention VAT and may or may not have VAT on the items.

AFAIK you need the VAT number on the receipt too, yes.

Anyone know why petrol stations seem to issue receipts that are supposedly "not a vat receipt" and even go to the bother of printing that on the receipt. Always puzzled me. After all, if they simply did not print "this is not a vat receipt" then it would be. If asked by a VAT registered person then they have to provide one so why not give everyone a VAT receipt.

Also, with those receipts, simply cutting the bottom line off (i.e. the bit stating "this is not a vat receipt") gets you a VAT receipt anyway, and no clue that it has been tampered with!

Yes, but beware of the scam operated by Safeway, Dixon's (and all of it's offshots such as Currys/PC World/The Link etc). They sell goods and give what looks like a VAT receipt with a VAT number. However if you calculate VAT on the total and reclaim it, you will be over claiming if you paid by card (Switch/Maestro and other debit cards included) because DSG charge 2.5% of the goods total for processing card transactions. This 2.5% is VAT free.

You need to ask for a VAT receipt at all DSG stores and they treat you as if you are some sort of leper for doing so. These VAT receipts give a detailed breakdown of the VAT charged.

It is interesting that even for amounts greater than £100, DSG do not give a detailed VAT receipt unless asked to do so.

How far would they be allowed to go with this? Could they sell you 50 of goods and claim that 40 is a charge for processing the card transaction, so that VAT is only payable on the remaining 10?

That's interesting -- I've just concluded a battle lasting several weeks with PC World in order to extract a VAT invoice from them. One of the things they told me is that you can reclaim VAT if you have a (non-VAT) receipt for an amount not exceeding 100 showing the VAT number. I looked for this in the VAT Guide but failed to find any support for it. I did find a section which permitted claims without a VAT receipt for amounts not exceeding 25 where you KNOW the supplier is VAT-registered and only for specific items such as those from coin-op machines, road tolls, parking charges and some phone calls; but not a general permission of the kind implied by PC World. However, I'd welcome a reference if I missed it somehow.

Matti

You need a 'VAT receipt' for amounts both above and below £100 as I understand it. The difference is that for above £100 it must be a 'full VAT receipt' with the VAT fully broken down whereas for amounts less than £100 it can be a less detailed receipt and doesn't have to have the VAT shown separately.

If the receipt you have (for less than £100) has PC World's VAT number on it, and the date (and probably a couple of other things I've forgotten) then it will do as a VAT receipt. Even if it said "This is not a VAT receipt" I susepct it would be OK as it isn't a requirement of a VAT receipt that it *doesn't* say that (not as far as I know anyway!).

OK, but where's the authority for this in the VAT regulations?

Matti

See:-

If you mainly sell direct to the public you do not need to issue a VAT invoice unless your customer asks for one. But if you are asked for one and the supply including VAT is worth £100 or less, you can issue a less detailed VAT invoice showing only:-

Your name, address and VAT registration number

Time of supply

A description identifying the services or goods supplied

Charge made including VAT

Rate of VAT

(The maximum amount has now been raised to £250 by the way as I saw when looking at the change notices at the bottom of the above)

Thanks, and I can now see the section in the VAT Guide which describes this. However, PC World's standard receipts don't qualify because they don't show the VAT Rate; and because these "less-detailed VAT invoices" mustn't be used for sales including Exempt Supplies, their receipts for credit-card sales don't qualify in that respect either.

Matti

I note the VAT office now require people to register when they are using such schemes, but they don't say if the schemes themselves are in any way illegal.

What puzzled me is that the penalty for non registration is a percentage of under paid VAT. If the scheme is not actually illegal, then there will be no underpaid VAT and so no penalty for not registering!!!

I have had similar discussions with thermal receipts. I cannot see anything in the VAT guide on this other than we have to keep receipts for 7 years (I think) and as such a receipt would obviously have to be durable to that extent (thermal ones would most likely have faded beyond any recognition by then). I have had places like PC world photocopy the termal receipt for me!

"Steve Firth" wrote

I thought that HMC&E's position on this was that it is not allowed, and VAT is due on the full sum - in which case, you should be able to reclaim the "full" VAT, shouldn't you? [Surely it is the view of HMC&E that matters most, not that of the retailer!]

Or have the cases gone through court now and the retailers won??

If it has VAT on it, you will get an invoice from them. Examples are the cost of supplying information to your auditor, and credit card terminal rental.

The last result was in favour of the retailers, but it hasn't reached the House of Lords yet.

Some retailers state that 1.5% or so of the total go to a card company so if you get a receipt it ought to state that.

IIRC when I get fuel from a Safeway stations the VAT is worked out for you on that basis.