Contracting back into SERPS/State Second Pension

I've just received a rather bizarre letter from Norwich Union in relation to a contracted-out pension I have with Provident Mutual (which NU acquired some years ago)

It states "Norwich Union strongly recommends that you rejoin the State Second Pension no matter what age you are now. You should only stay contracted out if a financial adviser says you should".

I'm surprised that they are recommending I rejoin, rather than recommend that I "take a serious look at rejoining". This seems to be a rather strong position to take, given that they haven't done an analysis of my personal situation, so far as I'm aware (I guess it's possible that they have enough info "on file" to enable them to do some form of rudimentary analysis automatically)

I am wondering what's driving them to take this position. Has anyone else received a similar letter and does anyone know why they are being so forceful? Are they, for example, trying to close off this part of their business for some reason?

TIA

Jeremy

Reply to
Jeremy
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You beat me to it, as I was thinking of putting a post on this. I got the same letter last week.

If I read it correctly, it's telling me that I have wasted the 15 years of contracted out payments I have made. My gut feeling is that they have seen the lower returns markets are giving the pension funds (plus the money grabbing chancellor games) and see big pension problems ahead for them when people start blaming them for poor returns.

I had a plan to write to them and ask them what had led to this stance, so that I could prepare a mis-selling case if they have advised me badly

I don't know if anybody else knows what has changed with the rules or government?

John

John

Reply to
John Bishop

I was a "financial advisor" in the mid to late eighties, I worked as a tied agent for a variety of ins co's inc., Royal Life, GRE (now AXA), Cornhill, etc.. At the time, it had just become trendy to opt people out of SERPS and I attended many meetings and training seminars where I was told that doing so was the best favour I could ever do for my clients. I disagreed.

I had also been interested in stock market analysis and was shocked at the short-term memories of others in the industy. The bottom line has always remained the same...

There is no better pension scheme in the UK today than the SERPS!

Contracting out was always a very bad idea. It has now become obvious that private schemes will have an enormous shortfall and it may interest you to know that I never took one myself. I have no savings plans, no endowment policies, nothing. They are all under-performing schemes which are further penalised by the huge charges and commissions applied at inception.

All cases of "contacting out" is now considered "mis-selling" within the industry. During the nineties, most companies advised their clients to rejoin SERPS and had to compensate those affected by making up for any shortfall due to having contracted out.

heh.. The govenment have enough to worry about in terms of UK pension provisions in the next twenty years or so. There will be some serious poverty and social decay if something is not done.

Problem is, I don't think anything *can* be done without a complete change in social attitudes.

Reply to
Mike

The last time I looked you had to have a minimum of 10 years contributions to qualify for the now second state pension.

My company pension provider took everyone back into the second state pension a couple of years ago. Got to admit didn't really understand it at the time but for the past year there has been many articles in the media telling everyone to get back in as quickly as you can.

I would seriously look into it. Search the Guardian and Times etc online archives and then apply to the Pension Service to give you an assessment of your existing state pension benefits.

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Reply to
Jane Tweedynn

I will assuredly be staying contracted out.

One may talk about shortfalls in private pensions due to the current bear market in stocks, but government will face an even worse shortfall in 20-30 years. I expect pensions to be more and more means tested in the future and will expect nothing from the government despite over 40 years contributions - THAT is the mother of all mis-selling scandals!

My only gripe is that I cannot redirect the SERPS premiums to some other than pensions because:

  1. Forced annuities is a bad idea.
  2. When the crisis hits in 20 years, the government will forcibly convert private pensions to depreciating treasuries/IOUs to fund their own stressed social security system (you know, greater good and all that).

Roland.

Reply to
Roland Watson

-- snip --

I have considered whether or not to contract out of SSP but I decided to contract out. My reasoning was that, by the time I retire, they will probably have scrapped SSP or replaced it with something much poorer.

W.

Reply to
W

Without a hint of irony, snipped-for-privacy@jeremydonaldson.com (Jeremy) astounded uk.finance on 14 Dec 2004 by announcing:

As am I given that our pensions adviser is saying she cannot give advice one way or the other since there are too many factors to consider. Standard Life merely state that you should seek advice and let them know by January if you want to contract back in.

Reply to
Alex

Without a hint of irony, W astounded uk.finance on

16 Dec 2004 by announcing:

Indeed. It's a case of comparing investment risk against political risk and is, for most people, likely to be best decided on the toss of a coin.

Reply to
Alex

And if they haven't?

Reply to
Terry Harper

Then I (and the other posters with this view) will have lost that bet, but I don't think that the amount of money lost is going to be huge.

tim

Reply to
tim

"Mike" wrote

... which was often *negative* (ie no shortfall, but a GAIN had been experienced) - especially for younger punters.

Reply to
Tim

My own adviser, and others, are recommending to stay out on the principle that the government will means test eventually. They have no ther option to try to balance the books.

My personal view is I am cutting back my pension payments and freezing the funds. The returns are drifting downwards, and I might as well lock in the payments from healthier times. I have investment property which I will transfer into a pension plan in 2006, when they allow it. Property is always a safer long-term bet.

John

Reply to
John Bishop

Here's what Money Which had to say: Part I

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Part II
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Reply to
Biwah

I got one this week, from Prudential. I think they took over Scottish-something with whom I had a very small pension, called "protected rights". I can't remember what this means - I think it's something to do with a state pension, possibly some money which I got when I contracted out of SERPS in the 1980s. It has only about £1500 in it, which makes me wonder what it's about. It was worth about £300

10 years ago.

Around 1990 I got a letter from the same firm saying they missed some contracting out deadline and as this resulted in a loss to the policyholder (me) so they got an actuary to work out the loss, and they sent me a cheque for about £2500. It sounded like many life offices made the same mistake around then and had to send out compensation.

I think the summary in this thread is correct ie it is a tossup between financial risk and political risk.

Any state pension is likely to become means tested eventually, and since quite a lot of people will have very nice private pensions, this would raise a lot of money for the Govt.

Reply to
John-Smith

"Gains", if they existed, were mostly temporary. And (at least with respect to pensions they controlled) firms stole gains, with government connivance, and then -- when everything went South, simply wound up the pensions.

Reply to
tamsuraiya

The New York Times December 17, 2004 OP-ED COLUMNIST

Buying Into Failure

By PAUL KRUGMAN

As the Bush administration tries to persuade America to convert Social Security into a giant 401(k), we can learn a lot from other countries that have already gone down that road.

Information about other countries' experience with privatization isn't hard to find. For example, the Century Foundation, at

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provides a wide range of links.

Yet, aside from giving the Cato Institute and other organizations promoting Social Security privatization the space to present upbeat tales from Chile, the U.S. news media have provided their readers and viewers with little information about international experience. In particular, the public hasn't been let in on two open secrets:

Privatization dissipates a large fraction of workers' contributions on fees to investment companies.

It leaves many retirees in poverty.

Decades of conservative marketing have convinced Americans that government programs always create bloated bureaucracies, while the private sector is always lean and efficient. But when it comes to retirement security, the opposite is true. More than 99 percent of Social Security's revenues go toward benefits, and less than 1 percent for overhead. In Chile's system, management fees are around 20 times as high. And that's a typical number for privatized systems.

These fees cut sharply into the returns individuals can expect on their accounts. In Britain, which has had a privatized system since the days of Margaret Thatcher, alarm over the large fees charged by some investment companies eventually led government regulators to impose a "charge cap." Even so, fees continue to take a large bite out of British retirement savings.

A reasonable prediction for the real rate of return on personal accounts in the U.S. is 4 percent or less. If we introduce a system with British-level management fees, net returns to workers will be reduced by more than a quarter. Add in deep cuts in guaranteed benefits and a big increase in risk, and we're looking at a "reform" that hurts everyone except the investment industry.

Advocates insist that a privatized U.S. system can keep expenses much lower. It's true that costs will be low if investments are restricted to low-overhead index funds - that is, if government officials, not individuals, make the investment decisions. But if that's how the system works, the suggestions that workers will have control over their own money - two years ago, Cato renamed its Project on Social Security Privatization by replacing "privatization" with "choice" - are false advertising.

And if there are rules restricting workers to low-expense investments, investment industry lobbyists will try to get those rules overturned.

For the record, I don't think giving financial corporations a huge windfall is the main motive for privatization; it's mostly an ideological thing. But that windfall is a major reason Wall Street wants privatization, and everyone else should be very suspicious.

Then there's the issue of poverty among the elderly.

Privatizers who laud the Chilean system never mention that it has yet to deliver on its promise to reduce government spending. More than 20 years after the system was created, the government is still pouring in money. Why? Because, as a Federal Reserve study puts it, the Chilean government must "provide subsidies for workers failing to accumulate enough capital to provide a minimum pension." In other words, privatization would have condemned many retirees to dire poverty, and the government stepped back in to save them.

The same thing is happening in Britain. Its Pensions Commission warns that those who think Mrs. Thatcher's privatization solved the pension problem are living in a "fool's paradise." A lot of additional government spending will be required to avoid the return of widespread poverty among the elderly - a problem that Britain, like the U.S., thought it had solved.

Britain's experience is directly relevant to the Bush administration's plans. If current hints are an indication, the final plan will probably claim to save money in the future by reducing guaranteed Social Security benefits. These savings will be an illusion: 20 years from now, an American version of Britain's commission will warn that big additional government spending is needed to avert a looming surge in poverty among retirees.

So the Bush administration wants to scrap a retirement system that works, and can be made financially sound for generations to come with modest reforms. Instead, it wants to buy into failure, emulating systems that, when tried elsewhere, have neither saved money nor protected the elderly from poverty.

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Reply to
tamsuraiya

Thanks, useful links.

Reply to
Terry Harper

wrote

Eh, what makes you think that?

wrote

Now you're just talking rubbish. Can you name one life office that has "stolen" any gains made in an APP from its policyholders??

wrote

How could a life office "wind-up" a personal pension policy?

Methinks you are confusing company (occupational) pension schemes with approved personal pension plans!

Reply to
Tim

Without a hint of irony, John-Smith astounded uk.finance on 17 Dec 2004 by announcing:

I'm pretty sure that's your NI rebate from contracting out.

Reply to
Alex

Thanks Biwah, I was wondering what they said.

First, to get things into perspective, from rough calculations the S2P appears to be worth ~£3,750pa

They say that the return required to match S2P is 5.9% nominal, based on -

Earnings 4% Charges 1% Growth 0.9%

Comparing this with some real world figures -

Actual equity returns -

FTSE All Share - trough to trough during the 12.5 years of the last stockmarket cycle (ie during a low inflation environment) 4.1% Dividends, say, 4%

That gives 8.1% nominal. Deflating this using the Which? figures -

Earnings 4% Charges 1% Growth 3.1%

Actual property returns -

Real property returns during the 28 years when inflation was less than

4.5% are 4.8%. I've no idea what the net yield was.

Given this I think the projected real returns figures used of 1% & 3% (excl charges) are pessimistic bordering on the downright depressive. The 1% figure is laughable. This is *before* charges, so after the charges the growth will be near zero.

Given the small amount of money involved and the small risk of underperforming the S2P I'm happy to take on the risk in order to have the funds one step removed from changes of government policy.

I too have just received a plea from the pension company to reconsider my ASP. It seems to be a campaign originated from the Association of British Insurers (ABI)

Daytona

Reply to
Daytona

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