delivery in USA only?

"Norman Wells" wrote

Which particular sub-section were you thinking about? All of the sub-sections of Section 10 ("Infringement of registered trade mark") which describe possible infringements, include the phrase "A person infringes a registered trade mark if he uses **in the course of trade**..." Of course, in the situation I have described the owner of the (trademarked) goods is not using them in the course of a trade when they cross the border (they do not intend to sell the goods later in the new territory).

Indeed, sub-section 89(2) states: "... the importation of the goods ..., otherwise than by a person for his private and domestic use, is prohibited; ..." So, it appears that private & domestic use *is* allowed explicitly.

Reply to
Tim
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"Matti Lamprhey" wrote

Unfortunately, it appears that the case of "CD Wow" (the closest one to my example above) was not tested in the courts. [So we don't yet know the real answer!]

The BPI then began its biggest similar such case against CD Wow, a Hong Kong retailer that had an estimated 100 million turnover last year. The record seller apparently arranges that UK buyers buy the product in Hong Kong, so CD Wow is not doing the importing at all. Its argument had been: "We have record company consent and change of ownership takes place outside the UK. There is a huge difference between us and the Tesco-Levi Strauss case."

Reply to
Tim

As a matter of words, 'in the course of trade' is not restricted to the instant when the goods cross the border, but is a much wider time frame. Exporting and importing the goods are specifically stated to be use of the trade mark by virtue of Section 10.4 (c). It can hardly be denied, at least to my way of thinking, that importing goods as a result of a commercial transaction so that the purchaser actually receives them is such use 'in the course of trade', and therefore infringement.

If it were, it would be stated in Section 10, the major section defining infringement, but it's not. Section 89 relates only to the specific position where Customs and Excise have been notified of a potential infringement occurring at a specific time and place and are on notice to treat the goods as prohibited goods, thus liable to seizure. This is a heavy-handed procedure designed to prevent large scale infringement. I imagine that the exclusion in subsection (2) is there in order to limit it to such actions, and exclude C&E's involvement in trivial personal infringements.

Reply to
Norman Wells

"Norman Wells" wrote

Of course - that's why I said "they do not intend to sell the goods later in the new territory".

"Norman Wells" wrote

Agreed. But in this case, that use is *not* "in the course of trade", so the trademark is not infringed.

"Norman Wells" wrote

Ah, but the new owner is *not* trading, and never has been trading, in the item. It was the (Brazilian) seller that was trading, but they no longer own the item, and are therefore not importing it.

Which of them did you think was trading in the item when the importing takes place?

"Norman Wells" wrote

It doesn't need to be explicit, because it says that infringements only occur when "in the course of trade". "Private and domestic use" is *not* "in the course of trade".

"Norman Wells" wrote

Hmmm. You think that it would be legal to import privately if there happened to be such a notice, but illegal if there happened not to be? What would be the point of making it legal, only in the case of a notice existing?

Reply to
Tim

I think there's a good argument, since both are working in concert, that both are.

Why do you think CD Wow, based in Hong Kong and doing much the same, decided to settle out of court _and_ to source all future CDs from within the EU? From a fundamental belief in the strength of their case?

Trade is merely buying, selling and supplying. Whether it's for private and domestic use, or larger scale commercial exploitation is irrelevant.

No. As I've already explained, both are trade mark infringements. The difference is that Customs and Excise can only seize the goods that are imported if the importation is on a larger commercial scale than just for personal and private use. Otherwise it's for the trade mark owner to take action for infringement.

Reply to
Norman Wells

Wrongly.

At a loss or subsidised by other countries.

I think the pharmaceutical directors wouldn't lose *ANY* sleep about that. In the main, the pharma companies are scum. Your wellbeing is not their concern except as a byproduct of making a profit. As a rule, they are not in biz to find cures, but treatments, hopefully lasting as long as possible. And don't put it past them for them to try and patent traditional remedies that have been in use for hundreds of years.

Reply to
The Boss

Your point, if you have one, being.....?

And why should they? Now deal with how you propose to persuade them to sell their products in the third world at third world prices if there were no restrictions on the subsequent export of those products to higher price markets.

Am I wrong, or do I detect the glimmerings of a paranoid leftist agenda here?

I hope you never fall ill, and never use any of these wicked companies' products.

If you're well, keeping your fingers crossed would be a good idea.

Which is utterly impossible to achieve under any patent laws in any country in the world. It's one of the basic principles that you have obviously failed to grasp, or have conveniently overlooked for the sake of your Leninist cause.

Reply to
Norman Wells

"Norman Wells" wrote

A buyer and seller are *always* "working in concert" !! However, often one or both of them is *not* trading.

[Take the case of someone selling their home, and someone else buying it to live in -- neither are trading.]

Hence, your argument must be invalid. Try again!

"Norman Wells" wrote

I don't know. Do *you* know why they did? Perhaps it was just to save the inevitable hassle...

"Norman Wells" wrote

If the buyer only uses the items for private or domestic use, then they (the buyer) are very much *not* trading in the item in question.

Only the seller could be trading in that case (although they might not be, depending on other circumstances).

"Norman Wells" wrote

You mean "suggested"...

"Norman Wells" wrote

I'm still waiting for you to convince me.

"Norman Wells" wrote

And what would be the point of that, if your view was true?

Reply to
Tim

One's selling. One's buying. They're trading.

...of losing.

The buyer and the seller are both trading. It's what the word 'trading' means.

When you read what I've said, you'll convince yourself, and it'll be a more valuable lesson learnt.

Reply to
Norman Wells

UK law is fairly clear on this.

If you buy a car, drive it around and then sell after several months or years to another person also to use for transport then that is a private sale. You will not be subject to UK legislation on trades description and other matters, and in the unlikely event that you did make a profit there would be no tax on selling a private chattel. (OTOH if you bought a work of art as an investment, then you might have to pay capital gains tax on resale even if you weren't a trader).

On the other hand if you regularly buy and sell cars with the aim of making a profit on it then you are a trader. There is a lot of compliance and you will be laible for tax on the [net] profit and you might even need to register for VAT.

So a trader is someone who buys and sells goods by way of trade (i.e. as a business).

Just one little caveat if a business sells a trade assett (like say its delivery van), even though that might only be a one off it is still a trade sale.

Reply to
R. Mark Clayton

"Norman Wells" wrote

Yep ...

"Norman Wells" wrote

NO! - The seller maybe trading; the buyer is NOT! [For the purposes of the trademark legislation.]

"Norman Wells" wrote

You need to go and find out what "trading" actually means.

"Norman Wells" wrote

... yep, I've convinced myself that you don't know what you are talking about!

"Norman Wells" wrote

Yep - I've learnt now not to listen to your ramblings!

Reply to
Tim

The sale of grey market goods is subject to EU law. In general, once released into commerce anywhere in the EU, the owner of intellectual rights (including trademarks) cannot conrol its further sale to a buyer in a different EU country.

There's a lot of stuff on this on the Internet. Wikipedia has an article, albeit incomplete:

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Le 25/10/07 04:09, dans snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com, « Chris Blunt » a écrit :

Reply to
Faubillaud

To the extent that there is "delivery in USA", the following may not be relevant:

Shopping A grey market

Dec 3rd 1998 From The Economist print edition

A recent European Union ban on ³grey-market² imports is unleashing aseries of law suits which will drive up prices

FANCY a bottle of Chanel perfume, some Versace sunglasses, or perhaps a pair of Levi jeans this Christmas? If you are looking for a bargain, you may be out of luck. A recent European Court of Justice judgment that allows companies to prevent importers from buying branded goods more cheaply outside the European Union, and then selling them at discounted prices inside the EU, has dealt a potentially deadly blow to dealers who specialise in importing famous names at hefty discounts.

Grey marketeers, or parallel traders as they like to be called, tend to deal in designer brands such as clothing, perfume and sunglasses, as well as in motor cycles, cars and electrical goods. There is no barrier to parallel trading within the EU, as manufacturers are unable to restrict the resale of trademarked goods within the community. But most grey-market goods are imported from the United States and Asia, where prices can be up to 50% lower. The European Court decided earlier this year that manufacturers were entitled to prevent the resale of such goods. Its judgment in favour of Silhouette, an Austrian spectacle-frame company, which sought to block the resale of a shipment of spectacles it had offloaded cheaply in Bulgaria, has had far-reaching consequences for free trade.

The fall-out from Silhouette is already evident in Britain in a spate of legal threats and court actions brought against retailers, dealers and importers. This week Honda began legal action in the High Court against four dealers who refused to give undertakings to stop selling unauthorised imports at up to £3,000 less than list price. Honda, which claims to have lost as much as a quarter of its British sales to grey imports, says it has been forced to act ³in the interests of consumer safety and to protect the integrity of the Honda brand.² Jack Glover, one of the dealers targeted by Honda, denounced the move as ³a legal manoeuvre to stifle competition, maintain artificially high prices in the UK and deprive consumers of choice.²

Britain¹s biggest supermarket chain, Tesco, has several actions pending against it. It had been given two weeks by lawyers representing Levi-Strauss ³to cease and desist² from selling Levi jeans at £30 a pair, up to £25 cheaper than authorised outlets. Far from caving in, the supermarket chain has issued a counter-writ against Levi-Strauss claiming that its business has been damaged by unjustified threats. Another American clothing manufacturer, Guess? Inc, which makes a range of T-shirts, is also seeking an injunction against Tesco on the ground that it is selling discounted Guess? shirts that have not been bought direct from the manufacturer.

A retailer as big as Tesco is not worried by legal threats. Such rows offer excellent value-for-money publicity. And a quiet retreat is always possible when the brouhaha has died down. Trade sources claim that Tesco has already backed down in the face of threats from Gillette. But smaller companies dare not take the risk. The chilling effect is already evident in the drying up of discounted branded goods reaching retailers. Andre Frenkel of Ramlort Ltd, a Manchester parallel trader in toiletries, says that he has had to cease importing goods from outside Europe. He points out that under the current legislation, his whole stock could be seized and destroyed.

The high value of the pound makes Britain a particularly attractive market for parallel importers. But similar legal battles are now going on across Europe. Christian Dior, for example, sued Kruidvat, a Dutch discount chain, after it advertised its Poison and Fahrenheit high-priced perfumes alongside a line of lurex underpants.

To protect their market, British grey marketeers have established the Parallel Traders Association (PTA). It has written to the chancellor, Gordon Brown, urging him to remove obstacles to grey imports, and is meeting next week to lobby the consumer-affairs minister, Kim Howells. The PTA¹s legal adviser, Garry Lux, points out that it is the consumer who is paying the price for defects in EU law: ³If you take away parallel trading, prices will inevitably rise. That is really the nub of this.²

The PTA has popular backing for its campaign. A MORI poll commissioned by the association found that 83% supported supermarkets that continue to sell designer goods imported from outside the EU at discount prices, and that 79% believe the government should press for a change in the law. But the attitude of ministers is ambiguous. The government supported the Silhouette ruling despite its stated commitment to a competitive market place. It has also so far made no representations in another important trademark case now being considered by the European Court. The Sebago case involves one of the key arguments made by parallel importers, that trademark owners who sell their goods in Europe must be taken to have consented to the sale of other goods that are essentially the same. The European Commission meanwhile is conducting a review of the economic impact of the trademark directive which could lead to reform.

Much is at stake. There are few reliable figures about the extent of parallel trading. It is a secretive business with sources of supply kept confidential. But what is certain is that until very recently the market in discounted branded goods has been growing rapidly throughout Europe. The Dutch Merchants¹ Association, a parallel trade organisation, estimates that the British grey market amounts to more than £1.25 billion a year. The chairman of Sony Music (UK), Paul Burger, has said that as many as one in five sales in Britain of some pop albums are grey imports.

With so much to play for, it is not surprising that the grey market has become a lawyer¹s paradise. However, it is absurd that legislation designed to afford protection against counterfeiting rather than competition should have become the main weapon in this legal battleground. The real victim is the consumer, a fact yet to be acknowledged by either the British government or the European Commission.

Reply to
Faubillaud

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