Property Prices are still moving higher in the midlands

:> A falling :> velocity of money as people hoard cash to await lower prices compounds :> this effect. Basically the whole system ratchets down in a reverse of :> the prior inflation and back towards stability.

: Mike,

: I've been following your postings on this for a few years now (I've even : read a book or two from your reading list). It's not clear to me though how : deflations work where there is a fiat currency

Japan has a fiat currency and so we have a current example.

: why would people hoard cash : when the central bankers are printing it by the bucketload?

You've got me there, but many are doing that in Japan. The banks are even accepting a near zero rate by holding Japanese government bonds. I guess the anser is that the cash gets more valuable simply due to the deflation. The authorities there are printing money, but with an effective credit revulsion underway, there's no easy way to force people to borrow it and get it into circulation. In the end, printing too much risks the currency itself as folks begin to move to hard money analogs such as gold and precious metals. There's little point in preenting deflation at the cost of a currency collapse and depression, as Argentina has discovered.

: Presumably this : is what Greenspan et al hope will break the cycle - it seems intuitive that : it it won't work, but I can't explain why it won't. Has there ever been a : deflation with fiat money?

My suspicion is that the ructions in the bond markets are an inkling of the reason that this won't work in the US. If you're in a lot of debt, you lose the power to set the interest rate on that debt. Greenspan needs to keep the printed money going in through property refinancing. That means that he needs property prices to keep rising to give people cash to take out when refinancing and he needs interest rates to keep going down to make it worthwhile for people to refinance. It's classic credit bubble dynamics.

Unfortunately, due to the US trade deficit, those cashouts are being spent on foreign goods and mean that the US needs foreign cash at the rate of nearly 2 billion Dollars per day. As it's been more than a billion Dollars per day for years, there's a lot of foreign holders of US liquid assets such as Treasuries. Those bondholders are the guys who really get to decide the long term interest rate to which US mortgages are tied and can therefore turn of the credit taps despite Greenspan's efforts. Greenspan needs to keep them onside, and since they've been promised deflation and made the bet on it, any threat to that means that they sell and the long rate goes up and shuts down the mortgage refinance pipe.

The shenanigans at Freddie Mac, and now investigations at Fannie Mae are also a case in point. The mortgage backed market is basically a multi-trillion Dollar leveraged play on the interest rate through derivatives. There's no way that Fannie and Freddie can possibly deleverage their holdings quickly without the markets ceasing to be liquid. Any accident with interest rates which left them on the wrong side would be a threat to the entire financial system that would make LTCM look like a sneeze. Greenspan can't afford for bondholders to get spooked and drive up the long rate too quickly and so he can't in the end just print whatever he wants.

The way I see the problem is that the authorities see deflation coming and deflation becomes defined as the problem. Deflation isn't the problem though, it's the solution, to the prior inflation and credit bubble. Left to run, it'd reestablish credit and price equilibrium at a level somewhere between the start of the credit bubble (let's say 1982 or 1992) and the start of the inlation (1948). It'd be uncomfortable for many at first but we'd sooner or later get deflationary growth and we'd soon adjust to falling prices. Obviously there are reasons governments don't want this. The tax escalator stops and they also have to pay back their own loans in more expensive money. It's better than a depression though.

The problem is the inflation that occurred and the credit bubble that it engendered. A lot of investment was malinvestment and that needs to be liquidated in order that resources can be efficiently reallocated to produce real wealth rather than the illusionary wealth that credit-driven speculation and binge borrowing produces. A lot of the debt undertaken in that binge-borrowing needs to be paid down or liquidated and that means that the money supply will have to contract for a while. Asset prices that have been driven up by the credit binge also need to fall again so that people can have discretionary spending without having to service huge debts in order to pay for basics such as housing. The cutting off of the credit spigot for housing will in an of itself cut the cost of housing so much as to produce a great deal of discretionary income which will again become available to feed demand.

The longer we put off cutting capacity, debt and asset prices, the more debt will be accumulated and the deeper, longer and moe painful the eventual and necessary transition will be. In trying to stimulate more asset price growth to stimulate more borrowing to stimulate more demand to meet the supply engendered of overcapacity built up through the bubble, we're simply inreasing leveraged debt based on a lower and lower interest rate which itself is the reason for so much malinvestment because it made projects seem economically feasible which wouldn't have been at normal rates.

In this, each ratchet down in interest rates is an admission of loss to the much needed deflationary forces and yet another double-or-quits bet with the same. The bill for the reckoning is going up and up. The game can't continue indefinitely because rates can't go below zero and something will probably break before they get there. Capacity will have to fall to meet demand and that fall will cut demand and so on. The stable level is below where we are now and it's going to hurt to get there but it's still the best thing to do. The idea that we can somehow keep going and simply borrow our way out of debt has been proven again and again by history to be one of the largest financial mistakes it's possible to make. The signs of strain: record private debt, record house prices; record levels of bankruptcies (in the US), record trade deficits, sluggish economies despite record low rates, record house prices, record levels of debt on houses, are all around us.

It's time to admit the party is over and the piper needs to be paid. Acting otherwise will be saving a recession at the cost of a later depression.

FoFP

Reply to
M Holmes
Loading thread data ...

You can read about his Ponzi scheme here:

formatting link
Roland.

Reply to
Roland Watson

Buying price is critical, getting a good price makes everything else easier, but what do I know ? You've got far more experience than me, through you business. It's just one of those business savvy kind of skills you pick up. The people who really do well are those with a natural traders mentality, that's something I admire - I know enough to know I'm not one !

As regards uncertain markets, as Richard mentioned, there are always good deals to be done, irrespective of the market in general, it's just having the knowledge & ability to find them.

Me, personally, I like the basic economics to remove as much as the risk as possible

formatting link
and do the job for me over a longer term as I'm lazy ! That's why I'm not interested in property at the moment and why I've gone from zero to about 75% invested in equities over the last 2 years. Using the yield to measure the return on different types of investment is a sensible and well known way of choosing general investment areas. I bought my property on a 10% yield, and own equities with a 5.5% yield when base rates are 3.5%.

Reply to
Daytona

: My suspicion is that the ructions in the bond markets are an inkling of : the reason that this won't work in the US. If you're in a lot of debt, : you lose the power to set the interest rate on that debt. Greenspan : needs to keep the printed money going in through property refinancing. : That means that he needs property prices to keep rising to give people : cash to take out when refinancing and he needs interest rates to keep : going down to make it worthwhile for people to refinance. It's classic : credit bubble dynamics.

: Unfortunately, due to the US trade deficit, those cashouts are being : spent on foreign goods and mean that the US needs foreign cash at the : rate of nearly 2 billion Dollars per day. As it's been more than a : billion Dollars per day for years, there's a lot of foreign holders of : US liquid assets such as Treasuries. Those bondholders are the guys who : really get to decide the long term interest rate to which US mortgages : are tied and can therefore turn of the credit taps despite Greenspan's : efforts. Greenspan needs to keep them onside, and since they've been : promised deflation and made the bet on it, any threat to that means that : they sell and the long rate goes up and shuts down the mortgage : refinance pipe.

Just to add that today's events are beginning to make it look like the bond vigilantes have wrested control from Greenspan. Unless he's got some other trick up his sleeve, there'll be a last desperate piush from those who've waited too long to refinance and then the game, and quite possibly the credit bubble, is over.

: The shenanigans at Freddie Mac, and now investigations at Fannie Mae are : also a case in point. The mortgage backed market is basically a : multi-trillion Dollar leveraged play on the interest rate through : derivatives. There's no way that Fannie and Freddie can possibly : deleverage their holdings quickly without the markets ceasing to be : liquid. Any accident with interest rates which left them on the wrong : side would be a threat to the entire financial system that would make : LTCM look like a sneeze. Greenspan can't afford for bondholders to get : spooked and drive up the long rate too quickly and so he can't in the : end just print whatever he wants.

Watch this space. Some in Congress want them investigated and some don't want to risk looking. The risk with the "Too Big To Fail" policy operated with LTCM is that it ends in "Too Big To Bail". If anything has ever been too big to bail, this is them.

I guess there'll be some way out again, but Freddie and Fannie are Ground Zero in the largest credit bubble in history and it's not an optimistic sign when top people resign and their finances get investigated. These guys faced less regulation than Enron and paid into political campaign funds to keep it that way.

FoFP

Reply to
M Holmes

I don't know that I would agree with you. I think that, having an analytical mind, is sooo valuable, really, let me be frank daytona...after along time of learning and working and investing, I am sitting on a business which can turn over a million dollars easily in the first 12 months of trading, its not a new business, but it is not a functioning business either.....

But, the point is, its dormant, and the reason for that is largely due to the fact I have learnt how valuable and important is having different skills...

One skill is being an entrepreneur, another is being skilled in marketing and sales, another and this is another biggie, is having the skills of an analyst....

I mean handling data, and comparing it in a fast and quick way, and applying it to business is a heck of a skill, someone who can look at data, piles of data, and sit at a desk and quantify, compare, and impliment solutions and systems, from a managerial point of view is so important...

IN fact, it is a common reason why small businesses do not grow, because the owners lack the skills to delegate ,and they lack the skills to grow, for one reason or another,

So thats why I don't think you can say there is jsut one skill as a "trader" to make it successful in this or that business...I've learnt that real life successful businesses, have a myriad of highly skilled people...a "team".....

No business owner at a certain level can have all the skills necessary, cuase if he did, he would be no good at the, he would need so many that a lifetime is not long enough to have all those natural skills.

So, I think you can go along way with analytical/financial skills in business...for example..someone like me, sure, I could do them, but probably not as quick, not as fast, as someone who had the knack, the training, etc.etc..

Comparing historical data, and looking at all the different financial scenarios.....it is that kind of info that is priceless...

Info is the heart of business nowadays..

Do you know in 30 minutes last night on......Tonight with trevor macdonald, they made one guy 70,000 Pounds. by just getting a financial advisor to get him a different mortgage!???

Purely information.

Yah I agree "knoweldge and ability"

That seems to me your beating the odds...

Reply to
Stephen GoldenGun

In article , Stephen GoldenGun writes

Um, because people are conned by the salesman, and don't learn basic maths well enough at school, so they fail to realise the planet has a finite population.

Reply to
Timothy Lee

Very true. Having been involved with mortgages for may years, it is hardly rocket science. And with the internet, it is much easier to obtain the relevant info on about 90% of available deals.

Reply to
Doug Ramage

: What "event" was that?

The fall in US Treasuries.

FoFP

Reply to
M Holmes

Then (if I recall correctly) as the saying goes bad money chased out good....

This last paragraph really struck me. I was watching Mr Greenspan on Television yesterday describe how, "if" the American economy began to contract it could be assisted by interest rates sub 1% and other unspecified measures. Is this not an attempt to spend one's way out of debt? (perhaps I'm missing something but haven't the Japanese had incredibly low prime rates but not amazing growth rates that should match such cheap money. If I recall a few representatives brought up the term "fiat money" which was quickly dismissed as being unlikely. It seems as if Mr Greenspan is enjoying the Glory that John Law enjoyed in his time.

The US apparently is on track to have a $450+B deficit this year and a $475+B deficit in 2004. This is on top of a 6 - 7 Trillion $ debt. What ever is going to happen if the US economy starts to contract in a serious manner?

I don't mean for this to be taken as Anti-Americanism but didn't the US profit from the second world war initially and by delaying entry into WWII they a guaranteed market for their products as a result of the decimated European and British manufacturing infrastructure? As an economic policy, it was pure genius and exactly what was required to provide the US with world economic dominance. (if what I have heard is correct).

The one thing that I would be investigating if I were fiscally very solvent is the process that Mr Sorros used to gain his billions off of the UK taxpayer (I mean government).. Imagine what would occur if a similar shorting were done of the US$, the potential wealth for the initiating party.......... Granted, it might not do much for world stability but then again money is amoral and one might argue that unrest in the persian gulf hurts world stability too.

Anyone think this could occur? I am just wondering where one small asset holder should shelter their money whist they await any deflationary period. Any gold backed currencies that are better than others?

Stephen

Reply to
System Prompt

Thats the point, he was a regular ordinary joe public, and if that kind of info can save him such money, then what are the possibilities?

Reply to
Stephen GoldenGun

I suppose the question to ask is whether deflation would be worse if they had not printed more money?

Yes, but the only money that could actually be lost is the premium, n'est ce pas? I am thinking specifically of options trading here where you may have the right to purchase or sell 1000 shares worth say 10,000, but you only actually pay a premium to the options underwriter which is something like a few hundred pounds. So, you can get a leverage of up to 10 to 1 but only risk the premium.

The seller/underwriter of the premium takes the greater risk as he will have to pay out if the share price (or whatever financial instrument is being traded) goes significantly against them. But I imagine these guys are constantly taking opposing positions to cancel out risk.

The largest traded derivative is interest rates. If anything were to go wrong globally, it would be here. That would require something like a sustained spike in rates or something greater than the Russian bond default of 1998. Would Greenspan & Co. jack up interest rates knowing it could flush the derivatives market down the pan? Can't imagine what that scenario would be.

Regards,

Roland.

Reply to
Roland Watson

They abolished MIRAS, although it was fading away anyway, and they gave the BoE independence and an inflation target of 2.5% which they've pretty much kept to. They also reduced government borrowing, at least to start with, which put downward pressure on interest rates. Also, although they have increased taxes somewhat they haven't (I think) done anything which makes it less lucrative to be a landlord, so the net effect is to tip the playing field a bit in that direction (if anything the new CGT tapering rules are better for landlords than the old indexation if inflation is low and prices are rising). They have also limited planning consent for new property and favoured brown-field and inner-city development which tends to be flats for rent, rather than suburban houses to buy.

The economic conditions are basically the fact that inflation and interest rates are low. It's true that those conditions apply in quite a few countries, but a traditional tax-and-spend Labour government would have found it quite easy to make the UK an exception!

Reply to
sburke

:> Japan's fifth largest bank just went under and required a government :> bailout. Japan has been unable despite printing money to defeat :> deflation for a decade. The arch-monetarist himself, Professor Milton :> Friedman, has been expressing reservations about the Fisherite idea of :> preventing deflation by printing money.

: I suppose the question to ask is whether deflation would be worse if they : had not printed more money?

Impossible to say really, but "worse" deflation would mean that they get to a stable point and the end of the depression faster than otherwise. Deflation is the cure, not the problem.

:> : So, all we need is a major run on Lloyds, RBOS or someone like that a la :> : Argentina (who wouldn't let them at their money except in quotas). I am : not :> : sure what would trigger such an event. :> :> A derivatives crisis seems the most dangerous since it would occur in :> unregulated markets. Outstanding derivatives now have a paper value :> roughly equivaent to the total GDP of the world.

: Yes, but the only money that could actually be lost is the premium, n'est ce : pas? I am thinking specifically of options trading here where you may have : the right to purchase or sell 1000 shares worth say ?0,000, but you only : actually pay a premium to the options underwriter which is something like a : few hundred pounds. So, you can get a leverage of up to 10 to 1 but only : risk the premium.

No, not all derivatives work in that way.

: The seller/underwriter of the premium takes the greater risk as he will have : to pay out if the share price (or whatever financial instrument is being : traded) goes significantly against them. But I imagine these guys are : constantly taking opposing positions to cancel out risk.

To a large extent this will be true. The question is whether whata remains uncovered would be sufficient to destabilise wolrd markets. The problem is that because the market is unregulated, nobody can know this until we discover that there's a problem.

: The largest traded derivative is interest rates. If anything were to go : wrong globally, it would be here.

Agreed. The credit bubbls being perpetrated through mortgages are largely leveraged interest rate plays.

: That would require something like a : sustained spike in rates or something greater than the Russian bond default : of 1998. Would Greenspan & Co. jack up interest rates knowing it could flush : the derivatives market down the pan? Can't imagine what that scenario would : be.

"Bond Vigilantes" would seem to have spiked long rates in the US and mortgages, as well as any hedging by Fannie and Freddie, must be tied to these rates. Greenspan doesn't have the control that the Fed and others like to pretend he does. The bondholders do.

FoFP

Reply to
M Holmes

I don't know if there's a formal definition, but a bubble is a distinct phenomenon with recognisable characteristics, e.g. see

formatting link
58448192/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_3_1/026-8127549-6026066 (gosh, 2.99, no bubble in book prices!)

or

formatting link
58448305/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_3_1/026-8127549-6026066

Interest rates are a large component, remember that base rates were

7.25% in 1998. Also we are getting an echo of the baby boom, the children of the boomers are now getting to the age where they are moving to a home of their own (people born in the mid 1950s had children in the late 70s who are now in their mid-20s). And I think the fraction of single people is still rising, although I haven't seen any recent statistics. Also, although the total population of the UK is pretty constant there is net migration to the south and midlands. Even the increase in people going to university is pushing it, there are fewer people in their late teens living with their parents (they don't usually buy, but they may go into rented houses which are lost to the regular housing market).

Another 20 years and it will look different, because the boomers will be retiring and there will be fewer young people, ISTR the birth rate now is only about 70% of what it was in 1960. And 20 years after that the population will probably be falling.

Reply to
sburke

I just moved south - not really my choice, this is where most of the jobs are. To get a big effect you would need a large number of people and businesses to all move at once, which is not very likely - unless the government offered a big subsidy, perhaps.

Reply to
Stephen Burke

If our property prices do start going downwards, what is a good market to get into...

Ok..say for example we have got cash, and istead of investing in property to try to get a decent return, what would you advise that we go into.

Is there any guaranteed investments anywhere that are returning 10%?

Reply to
Stephen GoldenGun

Ok, but I have a feeling that for example....an offer was made by a member of my family that is directly related to the "buy to let" business plan I had made...and this was for a 29K House, up north, where prices are increasing and businesses are relocating, it is just about fifteen minutes outside of liverpool, and the estate agents say we can rent it out for about

350 per month...plus we know some people who can look after it.

My point is that, what is going to happen to all the ordinary people, the masses who are earning under fifteen K per year....the average is not necessarily 20K per person in the UK, I think the median might be less even.....I feel the gap between richer and poorer is becomming greater, this has also been comming up in every survey etc.etc.

So I ask the question, simple economics...if people are not going to be able to afford to live, then businesses can't find workers...etc...so businesses will just have to relocated to cheaper areas, it will be simple supply and demand.

Like Liverpool has oversupply of housing same as other Northern areas, therefore there could be easily a shift, based on nothing more than simple economics..for businesses and people alike.

Nothing fantastic about that theory, just home spun common sense.

>
Reply to
Stephen GoldenGun

BeanSmart website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.