Backup vs COPYing the files in XP

First, you made a backup and you only needed to copy 1 of the 3 files to do it. One was the company file -- the actual data file to copy, one was a 1k something log file and one was a network transaction file IIRC. Once everyone is logged off the network transaction file has no data in it.

Second, they can turn the verify part of the QB backup process off.

Third, QB tech support has flat out told me never do verify/rebuild except on the machine the file resides on. Too much chance of network errors otherwise.

Gary

IF you are going to turn off the verify part of the backup process then you should manually verify the file periodically. This helps keep the file in good shape.

I have been told to do the back up file to the local hard drive and then copy the file to an alternative media.This gives you 2 copies of the file plus it eliminates the chance of network errors.

Another option for making backup files is the Portable copy. This file is significantly smaller than normal backup files. Everything you need to move your copy to another computer or even restore a bad transaction is included in that file. Again, make the portable copy to the local hard drive.

What is IIRC ? The "company file " extension is ... ?? ( I'm off-site now) ( the 900mb file or the 300mb file ?) The other 2 files are OK to delete from server ? for each company ? ( freeing up a lot of disk space on server) Is QB client software for PC same as single user version of QB pro ? Or does it 'need to talk to server' to process the data ?

Is that an option from QB menu ? When everyone logged off, he would elect something like: File - Verify file - and point to which company to check ? Does it ONLY 'check/verify' good vs bad data when verify is invoked ? Or does it check each time file opened/closed ? ( So if not backing up then no need to verify ?) Is this "verify" comparing backup to current data or checking CRC/data integrity of the SAVED file at any time ?

They do have one company that "has bad data" - I didn't get into it with them because it wasn't 'my problem' at the time and I could offer no help anyways, BUT I think they only use their own PC's for everything. They have a Win2000 WORKGROUP server that is X years old and they never touch it. They have no clue about sys mgmt - they are merely users. They bought server/ had installed QB on server and have QB client on each of desktop PC's. That's why I was nervous - when I saw how they did not manage things and I started asking ... "What if your C drive drives on the server, how do you recover ? " and I was told - we back that up to DVD on 'his PC'. I asked, " Ok, assume the C drive died on the server, how are you going to get the data from the DVD in his office to the server ? The server doesn't have a DVD drive and at that point has no OS ?" I got blank looks. Scary. SO I'll be reviewing the big picture with them.

One other QB question is : server vs client Pc data - is it handled " the same way ? Could a laptop PC use a Portable Copy of a Workgroup Environment version of QB - on a plane ? With a CLIENT version of QB - not a single-user version of QB ? Maybe there are the same thing - I don't know and that's why I'm asking. If a PC is a client, can it open this portable file/backup file on its own , or does QB Pro assume that a SERVER has the data and does the computing via handshaking etc.

Thanks once again.

I also have a blank look on my face. Can't you put the DVD into one of the workstations that has a DVD drive and copy the file up to the server?

The data file is the same no matter where it resides, either on the server or on a workstation. QB Pro does not has a CLIENT version.

The portable file because is lacks indexing information plus has compression is much smaller and is used when the file needs to be e-mailed. I would not use it as a back up. The portable file can however be read using any machine that has your version of QuickBooks installed.

Again no such thing as Client version or single-user version. If you have more than one QB license each licensed user can access the file at the same time.

Maybe there are the same thing - I don't know and that's

Reply between ====and ====

========IIRC ? Which of the 3 is "their data file to keep "? ( what extension ?) And can delete the others for each of the 10 companies once everyone logged off ? ========

==>> Is that an option from QB menu ?

=======1. They have less than 1gb free on server. The one company file file is 1gb+, their entire QB file ( 10 companies) is 11GB.

1. If the server crashed, and no OS , how to transfer ? So until disk replaced/ server OS/ QB rebuilt only one live copy on a workstation. They don't know mapping drives. They each currently HAVE a mapped folder but until OS restored and "that folder" recreated, they have no idea. They could each take the DVD and copy onto each PC for the day and have one person " Do PO's", one person " pay the bills" etc. =======

======Great - thank you. ======> The portable file because is lacks indexing information plus has

======Got it . ======Thanks once again.

Trimming content judiciously would certainly help readability...

...

If I recall correctly...

...

That's sign of needing more disk space anyway, then, not terribly much related to QB alone.

Which makes question 2) moot...

But that's silly, cause they would still have to merge and QB doesn't have a way to really do that effectively w/ differing transactions in multiple copies of the database.

Your task, should you choose to accept it, is to convince to either live w/ the network having to be rebuilt first in such a case or sell them the work to make them a more reliable system if they're concerned enough to address the problem (including pony'ing up the $$ required).

...

--

If I Recall Correctly. Google does very well with acronyms or try Wiki.

no point. Also them not being there might force you to open QB on the server for each company to make the multi-user hosting good to go.

The transaction file, has the last transaction each user was doing in it. It's purpose in life is if QB crashes or the network gets cut, when the user logs back on QB undoes any partial transaction that might have been in the process of being saved.

Terabyte class drives can be had for less than $300. Or spend 10 times that in labor looking for log files and stuff to delete to do it all over again in a couple of months.

I don't even want to think of how frag'd that poor disk is.

??Every copy of QB is the same, no client copy or server copy. Or was your question how to get data off a disk out of a dead system?

While they wait for the UPS man to deliver the replacement box you just tell one of the workers PC's to "Host" the QB file and everyone maps to that PC and gets the QB file from it.

If no one there has the PC skill to set up sharing and map a drive, then, yes they will have to call in some sort of IT person.

Verify only runs when the utility is invoked. It does not check the file each time the file is opened. This is why the utility should be run either with each backup (every x times opened) or once a week.

If there is a problem with the file it will automatically run a rebuild process to help fix the file. Once the rebuild runs, hit ctrl 1 then 2 to bring up the system files. you want to look at the qbwin.log file to see the errors that the rebuild process found. Fix the errors listed and rerun the rebuild process a couple times (checking the results each time) until the process runs without any problems.

Sorry - I DID try that , saw a few, but the syntax seemd technical was looking for only QB related entries. (d'oh)

Day-to day they DO each open it on the server. ( Light bulb icon ) Now I'm getting the big picture. I was thinking of all of this as a server app. They are only using the server to each get the same view of the same company but COULD each do their own thing for a while until server data restructured. So if only one user using 5 of those companies , she could just save on HER PC and get it off the server. I'll check today and if she can do that , then can delete those 5 companies off the server and free up a lot of space. Have her save to her own external USB drive. Then copy the rest from server to another USB drive - defrag server disk ( wipe D:) - copy " the main companies that they all use" back to server. Excellent.

Got it. Now that makes sense. But as far as backup -they only need to save/backup ONE of those files , right ? would it be the 900mb or the 300mb file Or is it just the 'QBB file' or just the 'QBW file' no matter the size ? For the 10 companies in the QBpro folder,to backup to drive E, command would be:

Copy d:\qbPro\*.qbw e:\*.*

That's all they need to save nightly ? And in could then burn to CD/DVD

Absolutely agree. I told them that I bought a 500gb USB disk at Best Buy 2 weeks ago for $99. I'll check - maybe app is on C and only data on D. If so and everyone logs off, is it just then a matter of them copying all of the data on D to the new 'drive X' and then file-open - X - browse - open file ? Or any registry related QB entries pointing to d ?

The have a Dell server and is "setup for Raid via hardware". ( That's all they know) ( keep in mind, I'm not specifically messing with their server- I was replacing the PC's and noticed all of this) As a user on server, I can see: C:\ (Win2000) has 4gb and D:\ (Data - QBW) has 12gb of which they are using 11gb. Since they told me " RAID", I'm not sure if one 16gb disk has 2 partitions and mirrored. or 2 8gb striped disks , but if they had to reinstall Win2k / rebuild C: they might have to break striped Raid set- losing the data on D: also. I HOPE it's mirrored.

Agreed. They use their system all day long. No defrag/ diskeeper type apps - no system management. It was installed x years ago - they never update - it just runs.

That was a reply to a question about : "why not just copy it from pc to back the server?" My answer was - no spare disk space AND if C: (Win2k drive) died, they would be down until OS rebuilt anyway. Until then they'd have to run off PC. Especially If RAID ( striped or mirrored - I don't know), they'd lose everything if striped.

REALLY - no server even needed ??!!! So I could copy all stuff off the server to the USB drive and instantly have them back up by just mapping to it !

Thank you all very much . I have a much clearer view now of what needs to be done.

( You're right but some groups I'm in want all info in there ... anyhow

Money is not the problem - really. They just figure - we are not tech savvy and - if it ain't broke ... I'm now telling them it IS broke and does need to be fixed.

Verify only runs when the utility is invoked. It does not check the file each time the file is opened. This is why the utility should be run either with each backup (every x times opened) or once a week.

If there is a problem with the file it will automatically run a rebuild process to help fix the file. Once the rebuild runs, hit ctrl 1 then 2 to bring up the system files. You want to look at the qbwin.log file to see the errors that the rebuild process found. Fix the errors listed and rerun the rebuild process a couple of times (checking the results each time) until the process runs without any problems. ====================== As a newbie, could you tell me what you mean by " Fix the errors listed " ? How would ' I ' do that ?

Thank you.

...

...

Yes. I think I may have inadvertently typed .qbb earlier, but that is the QB backup file, the .qbw is the "working" file.

--

It depends on the error message. For example, it might tell you that a payroll template is bad. To correct it, you would delete the existing one and create a new one.

In other cases, QB can fix things on its own and you don't have to do anything to fix it. I had an account that should have been a zero balance but was not due to some internal QB problem. Running the Rebuild utility (took 2 passes) fixed the problem.

When in doubt post the error message to the newsgroup and someone is bound to help you. You might also look for a Pro Advisor in your area that you can rely on faster. In some cases, you might need a live body to come look at the file or at least connect remotely to check your file for you.

Thanks you both once again. One more thing ( I was driving there and turned around to check this first)

QB website I just read:" The data file needs to be located on the same Hard drive that the software or (QB database manager is installed).So unless your external drive has an operating system plus have room to install the database manager you will not be able to use that external drive for your working data file. " So hosting the company files on a workgroup PC would require more than "just copying the data file/folder from server to that PC "?

1.I would need to reinstall some of the software on that pc ( to temporarily remove the server from the picture ).

1. If they had no other need, could they replace their 6 yr old server with a (probably faster/more memory) pc and just share the folder ? Or is a server a requirement for a multi-user license ( they have Premier 5 uesr Contractor edition) or to do some of the other features of QB ?

Thank you again and I think this will do it for questions. Sorry to be such a pest. Last week I had no idea I just going to be learning about this and really find it interesting. I now have an overall idea of QB data structures and the backup /portability of data files. And will at least be able to tell them what they should do - or ask their reseller about - if new system ( server/pc) still needed. I'd like them to be able to copy all of the stuff to the external drive and then clean up that (6-7 yr old !) server data drive. Meanwhile, they can at least do backups by just buying that external drive and have one of the users save the files daily.

Regards, Bobb

At home so I can't look up the extension. But if you get properties on the files it is obvious which is which.

No registry entries. You didn't say which version of QB they were using, but all later versions do require that before a remote machine can get the data file that the local machine run QB and turn on hosting for the file. (It launches a daemon) After that is done QB can actually be removed from the machine, but I'd advise against that in case they need an additional file hosted as otherwise you would have to reinstall QB.

Hard disk's always fail. They will lose it anyway.

Yes. Our "server" at work is just an ordinary desktop. Our real server, the one running Apache, e-mail, FTP, etc. sits next to it running a flavor of Unix and because of that it can't host the QB files.

However I do need to caution, it is possible that they installed QB to run under windows terminal services. I doubt it because they would need more smarts than you say they have to keep it going.

If that server box of theirs is x years old, it needed to be replaced x - y years ago and now is so old replacing it will be a PITA.

>

Answer is incorrect. I'm presently hosting a company file on a drive other than the system drive, and your user is too. However you do have to have QB on the machine to turn on hosting. After it is enabled you can delete QB. When your turn on hosting it installs and launches a daemon that does the hosting.

Windows terminal services which is another way QB can be hosted is a different beast.

>> At QB website I just read:>> " The data file needs to be located on the same Hard drive that the >> software or (QB database manager is installed).>> So unless your external drive has an operating system plus have room to >> install the database manager you will not be able to use that external >> drive for your working data file. ">>

Currently each PC has QB premier installed and deals with data on the server ( 4 or 5 simultaneous users)

** on the PC ?

you can (/could ) delete QB.

** on the server ?

My intent is not long term to stay on PC's , but

1. for backup
2. to allow them to work and still be able to clean up server or maybe even schedule to replace drive(s).

If I can get QB off there for a bit and check out the Dell Raid setup, I would like to ghost their C: to another drive and then reinstall the data to D:. ( I'll check Dell specs/config ( IDE/SCSI ?) when I get there )

On the server.

On the server.

In the file menu of QB you will find a little item that says either "Host multi-user access" or "Stop hosting multi-user access"

To host you turn it to on and then can quit QB on the "now a server" and even remove it from the machine if you like.

In your case as they have a bunch of companies, you must open each company on the "server" in QB with the hosting selected on. That is how it communicates to the daemon which files to serve.

If you don't you get a message on the "client" with an error and instructions to go to the server and run QB on the file. One reason VNC or something like it is nice to have on the server, prevents those trips to the closet.

There is a fair amount of documentation on this in the help files with the program.

Yes, get those tiny drives out of that box and put something in that has a ton of room for expansion.

You didn't mention, is their server actually doing duty as a server? Is it hosting web, e-mail, ftp, or other services? Doing duty as a file server for other departments?

I'd personally suggest you attach an external drive to that server computer and instruct them as to making the backup to that. Add the date of the backup to the file name. Then burn two copies to some kind of removable media. Keep one in the office. The other goes home with a trusted employee. They are covered if the building burns. And those dated backups can prove invaluable if there is embezzlement or audit. Or even in the more pedestrian case where someone makes a mistake and changes an old entry which may not come to light for a few months.

Agreed. Originally the reason for the server was to run other "accounting app". Owner loved QB but as business got bigger he needed more people. He had called Intuit Sales to see if they had/would have a multi-user version and was told "No'. He bought a Win2000 server and then spent about $30k for some god-awful accounting program. Two months later QB was offered as multi-user ( for about $700 I think). He was furious ( that they told him no), but happy to be able to use QB again. They uninstalled old accounting app. Installed QB - they haven't messed with the server since, unless someone is hired/fired. Currently, the only thing their server REALLY is used for it to create/delete user accounts as employees come and go. Their website is hosted. Their email is hosted. So a new user logs onto the domain - and then can use internet to get to webhost. The 'mgmt folks' have rights on their local PC's - the workers have no accounts on PC's ( to prevent data loss/stealing). No system reboot/ cleanup / OS maintenance ever done. Their attitude " if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

One other thing, while I was driving there yesterday I was wondering ... license-wise .... they have 5 user license - that's audited/controlled from the SERVER ? or from the data file ? Here's what I was thinking ... they have 10 companies ( 9 of them real estate: each property = 1 company) Most of the employees use the 10th, the 'main company'. I'll leave that as-is. Only 2 of them access the Real Estate piece. Could one of the two host the real estate companies and have the other access it ? And they would not need to be on the server at all ? Could I delete those companies from the server ? ( freeing up the space) They could backup their own stuff to external drives in their office. How would the multi-user license work then for those two ? Is it just a matter of:

and their current setup/ license will work ? or still need companies/accounts on the server to authorize ? If they did host the RE files on the PC's then the main company could only have 3 people logged in ?

Also, it seems a waste to have a server/raid yet put the data onto a USB drive ? Anyone done that in multi-user environment ? I would think it would be very slow.

Politically speaking, I'm nudging my way in and I have been telling them to get backup USB drive for server. Main issue is the 'person in charge' says he'll handle it - and wants to - but never does. What I did yesterday was gave the accounting guy one of my homemade external USB drives ( I bought a case and have a lot of IDE drives that I use in that case). I made a little program to copy the QBW file to a folder on that USB drive ( plugged into his local PC) Once they see that

1. it works and
2. how easy , I'll create a scheduled backup program to run at night ( everyone must be out of QB). Have them get their owns USB drive(s).

Thanks for the feedback.