Dear Dave: pay child benefit to all regardless of income, and save a packet


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I have been wondering if anyone here actually knows any "scroungers". I don't, though I have had problems with tradesmen who, when asked for a receipt, say: "I can give you one if you like, but then I'd have to charge you VAT". By implication, they must have a sizeable business to have to make a VAT return (AIUI), so they are part of the black economy.
Cameron/Osbourne are using the alleged "extravagance" of the last government to make the kind of cuts they were going to make anyway. You can't go on paying invalidity benefit and at the same time restrict the poor CEO's bonus increases to only 17%, and their pay increases to 7%.
That's only double the inflation rate, poor devils...
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writes

Depends on how you define "scroungers". I know loads, if you define them as people who either deliberately get themselves into a situation where they are reliant on means tested benefits or deliberately don't get themselves out of it when they could.

Yeah, cos the deficit isn't real is it? Ask the Greeks.

Yes, the fat cats have seen their pay soar under Labour. Not to mention taxes on the rich were far less under the last Labour government than even under Thatcher. Which is why so many millionare businessmen back Labour. At least the new government are proposing a 20:1 max ratio of pay in the public sector, more than the last lot of incompetant fat cat arse lickers ever did.
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Labour should be in inverted commas in this context, Blair was a Tory.

What they are proposing is one thing, what they will do is another.
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writes

Nor did Gordon, so I presume you didn't vote for him either then. Nor did Nick. Nor did any other party I'm aware of propose it. So, who did you vote for?
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I voted for my local MP. :)
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Who obviously stood on a platform of abolishing all means testing then. Who was this MP?
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Child benefit is and always has been paid regardless of income.
What you probably mean is child tax credit.

Yup. None of them will ever do it though. It would mean a very large rise in income tax rates which all governments seem obsessed with lowering because people are stupid enough to think low income tax rates means low taxes. Even after Gordon the moron proved them wrong again and again with all his stealth taxes.
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On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 13:10:54 +0100, Andy Pandy wrote:

Au contraire - I meant child benefit. There is a groundswell of opinion to get it means tested. This would add to admin costs.
What I would like to propose is that all allowances / benefits / credits are scrapped and that instead every adult UK citizen gets paid a fixed sum by govt every year. Call this A (it'd be around £5000 each). All other govt handouts would cease.
At the same time, the tax system is changed so that everything is taxed at the same flat rate - that's income tax and VAT. Call this X (it'd be around 20%). In future VAT would apply to ALL purchases. The budget would have to be drawn up to decide what that rate needs to be, to balance the exchequer and pay off our national debts. All personal tax allowances are abolished.
The incentive to work would be there for everyone: Simply put, if you want more than the basic allowance, then go out and get it.
The simplification would be enormous - How much is your tax bill? well its 20% of all your earnings. No need to have armies of experts sorting it out.
There would be no exceptions or loop holes. e.g. If you decide to have 10 kids, you'd better get a job, because the state would not be picking up the tab for more than your £5k / year.
A left wing govt might be inclined to have a high A and a high X. A right wing govt might cut both.
Like all great systems it has an elegant simplicity.

Potentially a huge one actually!
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From what age?
Including convicted murderers and pick-pockets?

So I have to be VAT registered to sell my kid's bike to my friend? And keep the VAT receipt showing the Input VAT when I bought it 5 years ago?
Similarly for my house?

Except for the handful of people who check the resulting 40 million VAT returns every 3 months.

What are "earnings"?
Do you mean my village shop-keeper's total takings, with no allowance for his purchases and other costs?
Will universities have to pay 20% tax on their fee income?
What about the money I get from my insurer after my car's been stolen? (I already paid 20% VAT on the premium).

I wasn't aware this country has an army of anything approaching "experts", so where's the saving?

Actually, £10k / year if I remember my biology correctly.

Until you stop and think about it.... And discover that, like all "great systems", it's unworkable.
IMHO, of course...
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Martin






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I would assume he means whenever they leave education which would be 16+

Only if they then had to pay 5k p.a. for their keep whilst detained at Her Majesty's pleasure.

I hope not otherwise that would defeat the concept of simplicity.

There would be little unemployment then :-)

Probably the balance of income after deduction of allowable expenses.

Hope not, he should be allowed to deduct cost of purchase etc.

Seems fair.

Exempt.

I thought that most of the experts are on usenet and unpaid :-)

AOL

It is good to think outside of the box though and there is some mileage in exploring such ideas. I never have understood why we pay some people more to stay at home and/or breed umpteen children that they cannot afford to have and give them more than they could earn if they were employed doing something constructive.
--
Paul Harris

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Not really - if they merged it into the CTC which is already means tested the admin is all already there. They could increase the CTC by the CHB rates, and possibly remove or bring the family element of the CTC into line the withdrawal rules for the rest of the CTC and that could *reduce* admin costs (as less people would be eligible).

A "citizen's income". It's a good idea, I've argued for it.

It would have to be much more than 20%. I think I worked it out income tax would have to be about 45% or so last time I did it, assuming other taxes stay the same.

Yup!

Eh? No "child benefit", which you were arguing for paying non means tested? You'd need an amount for children, otherwise those who don't provide the next generation of taxpayers to pay their "allowance" when they're no longer paying taxes would be sponging off the kids of those who did.

Indeed.

Yes.
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"Andy Pandy" wrote

Not so - the state should just save up some of the taxes while people are working, to pay back to them later when they're no longer paying taxes (so there'd be no "sponging off the kids of those who did").
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And in which bank do you suggest they save it ...?
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Martin


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"Martin" wrote

Stuff some more gold in the vaults at BoE?
Mind you, they could "invest" it in paying CB for current kiddies, who'll grow up to pay taxes in the future...
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I don't think that there is the slightest chance of it being means tested by income for precisely this reason.

Because there would be a ('n even larger than there already is) subset of people who would decide that there was no need to work for a living
tim
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Absolutely right. Although you do have to have some system that prevents the world and his dog coming to the UK simply to cash in.
But it raises the headline rate of income tax and politicans are all scared of doing that.
Robert
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"RobertL" wrote

But how do you stop the entire *existing* population from "simply cashing in"?
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Better way to save money is to scrap it altogether and not replace it with anything else. Parents should bear all the responsability and costs of bringing up the children they chose to have.

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On Thu, 24 Jun 2010 12:49:49 +0100, "Terence"

OK. As long as no-one else benefits from their existence. I assume therefore that you will never claim your state pension or ever benefit from anyone else children? No. I thought not.
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On Thu, 24 Jun 2010 13:57:47 +0100

Surely my NI contributions were meant to provide my state pension.
My children were raised without trust funds, tax credits or any other benefit other than Family Allowance. My daughter is a teacher and my son is in the pharmaceutical industry, sufficient repayment of minimal benefits received?
Surely the time has come when people only have the children they can afford.
dg
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