LloydsTSB business account numbers

"PeterSaxton" wrote

What do you think might be wrong with that? It sounds perfectly logical...

In the land of the sensible I would expect that you would quote the account number to make a payment into it.

If your bank's account numbers are seven digits long, all this means is that they are in the range 1000000 to 9999999. The national interbank clearing system provides for 6 digit bank numbers and

8 digit account numbers, and these are not actually held as numbers but as strings of characters. Some automated processing systems are so inflexible that they require all 8 digit positions to be used, and so it will be necessary to ensure that your 7 digits occupy the correct 7 of the 8 available positions. One way to force this to happen, when using such an inflexible system, is to enter a leading zero.

I think there has been a misunderstanding, and that they have (or should have) told you that if anybody wants to pay you money they

*MAY* have to quote a leading "0", depending on exactly where they are doing the quoting.

Two possible reasons for this sorry state of affairs could be that the software for these processing systems is still written in Cobol, and that some of the programmers are football fans.

Happens all the time. BACS transfers will be rejected unless somebody inserts the leading zeros.

Wouldn't it be better if they made it a priority that all UK banks had eight digit account numbers?

Sadly, nowadays people who answer the phones at banks are the people who know very little about banking operations.

What percentage are football fans? I'll factor in an adjustment to your answer to achieve a more realistic figure!

All UK banks already have 8 digit numbers. When someone says their accounts have 6 digit numbers, it just means that the first 2 digits of all their 8 digit numbers are zero.

More fool you, then, for trying to talk to your bank on the phone.

I don't know, it only takes one to muck it up.

How many football fans does it take to change a lightbulb?

None.

(Having never seen the light, they won't notice it's blown)

My bank insists that their business bank accounts only have seven digits.

I asked to speak to somebody who had some knowledge.

Ronald: You're not supposed to answer that it's a joke.

Tim: There's no such thing as a lightbulb.

Alan: Do you have one in pink?

"PeterSaxton" wrote

Peter: Four hundred and three.... Ooops, I used the wrong method -- it's well over two hundred, though.

I'm intrigued. Why? (I don't mean why do they have 7 digits, I mean why do they insist). And what difference does it make to you, i.e. why did you bring it up? In what context(s) does the distinction arise?

Just to resolve an issue about account number lengths?

If banks actually had some people with knowledge, they'd be too valuable a resource to be wasting their time talking to members of the public (even if clients) on the phone at all, never mind about some trivial irrelevance.

Is there some punctuation missing there? To what sort of question can you answer that it's a joke?

The answer is: One to actually do it, plus a crowd of supporters to cheer him on, plus another crowd of supporters for the other side to boo, whereupon a fight ensues, missiles are thrown, one of which hits the lamp, breaking the newly changed light bulb, and a substitute has to be brought on.

e:

Presumably because they think that is the truth. I asked if they had eight digits and they said the account number was seven digits.

Because I'd like people to be able to pay money into my bank accounts. Lloyds TSB say their business bank accounts have seven digits although many people have to enter eight digits to make a payment online.

Yes

Given that you can get an O-level in a subject without studying the subject it's a sad state of affairs.

Here's an example: "Is Tim not a liar or is it a joke?"

Sounds a lot of fun!

Maybe it will be like that at Blackburn on saturday.

Peter: your bigotry is showing again.

It being true is hardly reason enough to insist. The sky is blue (well, except when it isn't, e.g. when it's night or cloudy), but nobody in their right mind would bother insisting that it is so.

Their account numbers, if specified as 8 digits, will all begin with a zero, and may therefore be thought of as having only 7 digits (of which the first is presumably never zero). They choose to think of them in that way. So what?

So they've answered your question. The number of digits your clients have to enter when making an online payment is a function of the software systems provided by *their* bank, not yours (unless they happen to be the same bank). LTSB are not in a position to give definitive advice about how to use other banks' systems. Some systems require you to enter 8 digits, in which case your clients would have to put a zero followed by your 7 digits. Some systems may be happy to accept 7 digits and will add a zero themselves, preferably at the front, to convert them to interbank format.

So, although some systems may work with 7, I doubt whether there are any systmes which will not work with 8 when the first is zero. So the best general advice your bank can give you is to tell your clients to use

8 digits starting witha zero, and they have done.

What's your problem? I don't understand why you're being so [anagram of Mr Ferris's first name] about it.

Well done! Give that man a complimentary O-level in English. Pity that sort of question wasn't asked here, though, innit?

On the contrary, it's interminably boring, because the story just keeps on repeating. The substitute lightbulb gets broken too, and the next, and so on until you run out of lightbulbs. The moral is, if you need a lightbulb changing, don't get football fans in.

I expect so. Same old story, a bunch of testosterone-charged young men in shorts running around a muddy field in the pouring rain after a silly little ball.

e:

Bank account numbers shouldn't be something that people "choose to think of them in that way". It is a recipe for confusion. If the banking system needs eight digits then the bank accounts should have eight digits.

You don't seem to understand the need for consistency when systems interact. I suppose in your world you'd think it isn't necessary to have phones working to a common system because something would get sorted out if people really wanted to communicate.

It was. You just asked it.

If you don't like something I'm quite happy for you to not like it.

I put it to you that their accounts *do* have 8 digits, and that their assertion that they have 7 is just the view of one of their numpties, based on the fact that the first digit is always zero.

Do these business accounts issue you with cheque books? The cheques will have the account number printed along the bottom. I expect they will have

8 digits. If so, I suggest you go in and show the evidence to the branch manager and complain that whichever member of staff advised you on the phone is a liar.

Of course I do, and there presumably *is* consistency, i.e. the systems interact between themselves on the basis of 8 digit account numbers.

When I said "some systems may work with 7", I did not mean that such systems use 7 digits internally throughout. I meant (do I really have to explain this?) that at the stage where a person (your client) interacts with their online banking system, this system may be perfectly happy for the person to enter as few digits as they like, and will automatically supply as many leading zeroes as necessary.

Whether such a feature is desirable or not is debatable. After all, if someone enters fewer than 8 digits, it might be by mistake. They may have omitted one or more digits other than leading zeroes.

Phones *don't* work to a common system, at least not at the user interface. On some phones I can just dial a local number, on others I have to supply the local area code first.

No, I asked "How many football supporters does it take to change a lightbulb?" That was a joke question, but not the sort of question to which "it's a joke" is a possible answer.

My reference to punctuation came from supposing you might have intended to write "You're not supposed to answer that, it's a joke."

That's OK, I'm also happy for you to like it.

e:

Wow, what brilliant advice! As John Cleese would say: "Ronald's specialised subject - the bleeding obvious."

I have cheque books, bank statements and paying-in books. They all have seven digit account numbers. I did notice that when I first received them years ago.

Your expectations are worrying.

This is the reason for this thread. There isn't your presumed consistency.

You meant wrong then. My clients complain that their system won't accept them entering my bank's seven digit account number. I repeat: This is the reason for this thread.

That's what is called a common system. It may be more complicated than you want but people know when to use it. It's not the same as saying:"try the account number and if that doesn't work add a leading zero".

You said: "To what sort of question can you answer that it's a joke?"

So on Saturday I'll be happy liking it and you'll be happy for me to like it.

What's bleeding obvious is that I think you enjoy calling people liars.

That's interesting. I have here (a copy of) an LTSB cheque with an

8-digit account number printed along the OCR strip, beginning with a zero, the next digit is 6 (it's a personal account though, not business). The standard format on the OCR strip appears to be "XaaaaaaX bbYbbbbZ ccccccccX" where aaaaaa is the cheque number, bbbbbb is the sort code, cccccccc is the account number, and X, Y, and Z are special blotch characters.

In particular, note the space between Z and the first character of the account number. On your business cheques, is the leading zero actually missing or just blanked out? I.e. is there still just one space between the Z and the first printed digit, or are there two? It should be easy to tell, because the characters are on a fixed pitch.

I don't think you've presented enough facts to allow that conclusion to be drawn. The problem is not a lack of consistency between systems but between user and system. Your client's banking system is not accepting seven digit numbers, or not converting them to 8 properly, so the case against inter-system consistency is not proven.

No I didn't mean wrong. I said "some systems may work", which clearly implies that others may not. You would only get to hear about those which don't.

Yes, but "it's a joke" is not a valid answer to that question either.

You do agree that the version with comma has a completely different meaning from the version without, don't you? One means "No answer is required because it's a joke", the other means "Do not supply 'it's a joke' as the answer". Which of the meanings had you intended? The second (your original) doesn't seem to make sense.

That's great, we'll both be happy! If your favoured side loses, you'll be less happy, but I won't. I haven't a clue who'll be playing, and couldn't care less who wins.

e:

You are wrong again.

two spaces

If my clients banking system is not dealing with my banks account numbers properly then it is proven.

This is the whole point of what I'm saying. It's a mess if people can't make payments simply by knowing the other person's banking details.

This is why it's common sense to choose the one that makes sense.

Thank you. Aha! So they *do* have 8 digits, but they've simply obscured the first to make it look as though there are 7, rather than actually removed it. It's still an 8-character field, and they've replaced the leading zero with a space.

I fully concur with your sentiment that it's a stupid idea.

It is not proven that there is a consistency problem *between systems*, unless you think of your client as a "system".

But they can. They simply need to be savvy enough to realise that the system they're talking to (*their* bank's) expects account numbers in 8-digit format, and that the obvious way to deal with a shorter number is to add leading zeroes. Actually I'd expect systems like that to be a bit more helpful and to give their users just that advice at the time they reject the number, but I guess they can't all be perfect.

Hell, if someone were to want to pay money to *me* by direct transfer instead of by cheque, I would tell them the six digits of my account number without bothering to mention the two leading zeroes even though those leading zeroes *are* actually printed on my cheques and statements. I would expect my other parties to supply the zeroes themselves if needed, without having to ask me.

I would have expected *you* to be savvy enough to tell your client to put in a leading zero, without bothering to enquire with LTSB first.

If you'd written what you meant, it wouldn't have been necessary to choose. Still, at least I chose right.

Your client didn't. :-)