Money mule (type of scam)

Yup - it's been around a while. They often target students - sometimes even going in person to student pubs and befriending them. The "money mule" is the real victim to the scam - the person who's been phished gets the transaction to the money mule reversed leaving the money mule with a great big hole in their account.

A variation on this is the "accidently paying too much" scam - where someone agrees to buy an item (perhaps on ebay, or a small ad) for say 50. But the buyer sends a cheque for 500. Seller then contacts buyer - buyer says "oops I was buying something else for 500 and sent you the wrong cheque - can you bank it and send me a refund".

Seller goes along with this, pays the cheque in, waits for it to clear, phones his bank to check, they tell him cheque has cleared OK. So seller sends buyer the item he bought plus a 450 refund.

A few weeks later the bank contacts the seller to say the cheque he paid in was fradulent/stolen. They are taking the 500 out of his account. The fraud is only noticed when the victim of the cheque theft/fraud gets his monthly statement and complains to his bank.

"Andy Pandy" wrote

Why doesn't the mule *also* get their transaction, to the scammer, reversed - in exactly the same way as the "person who's been phished" does?

"Andy Pandy" wrote

... asking for 'special presentation' (or whatever it is called), where the bank will take longer to get funds available but will confirm that they aren't dodgy first ... [Well you would, wouldn't you? ;-) ]

"Andy Pandy" wrote

... been bounced. So seller doesn't send anything to the bogus buyer.

Question is, does the seller get to keep any interest for the few days (or more) before the fraud is discovered?

Because either the money will have withdrawn in cash and given to the scammer, or it will have transferred abroad (the ploy often used by the scammers is to say "I need to transfer some mony abroad but my account won't allow me to - can I use yours for a fee).

For "special presentation" does the real owner of the account actually get contacted and asked if they wrote the cheque?

I though "special presentation" just speeded up clearing. Where's John Boyle when you need him?

Probably on the beach with bucket and spade keeping the grandchildren amused.

He'd probably say that the word "cleared" has been popping up too much in this discussion. What you ask the bank is whether it "is paid", and if the answer is yes, that's that and it cannot be reversed, ever. If you ask whether it "has cleared", it doesn't matter what the answer is, it can still be reversed. If yes, all it means is that you can draw the money out, for the time being.

Special presentation doesn't, I think, get the money to you faster (doesn't cause the cheque to clear faster), it just gives you the answer whether it "will be paid" sooner, sooner even than it will clear, and is typically used when selling a car, so you know the money is definitely coming before you hand over the keys.

"Ronald Raygun" wrote

I thought John had a couple of different phrases for the two concepts, something like "cleared for funds" and "cleared for payment", or something like that?

Anyway, being able to say "is paid" or "is cleared" seems simpler!

"Ronald Raygun" wrote

I wasn't sure if you *had* to ask for 'special presentation' in order to be able to later ask "is it paid?". Do you know - can you ask "is it paid" even when it wasn't produced for 'special presentation' - say when a scammer deposited the cheque?

No doubt JB will confirm in due course, but I'd have thought you could ask "is it paid?" at any time, and just keep asking at regular intervals until they say yes.

What does "is it paid" mean though? Does it mean the account holder has been personally contacted by his bank to ensure he actually wrote the cheque, or is a signature expert called in to verify the signature?

It was my understanding (from an earlier thread) that a cheque deposit can be reversed *at any time* if the cheque was fradulent. If the scammer steals a cheque/cheque book and writes a cheque which is used to pay for an item, and the account holder doesn't notice the debit from his account until 6 months later, then the transaction can be reversed even then.

No, I think it just means there are enough funds in the account to cover the cheque, and that they have now been marked as spent so they cannot be used to notify further cheques as paid.

I don't know whether that was speculation or fact. I seem to recall discussions (from earlier - years ago) along the lines that if funds were credited to an account in error, they could not be taken back unless the error was noticed more or less straight away; there was a short time window, something like by noon the next day, within which the transaction could just be reversed, but thereafter it would require the account holder's authority. If this authority was unreasonably withheld, he would need to be sued to force him to give it.

It seems appropriate that fraud should fall under a similar regime, or even that the innocent payee would be indemnified by the banks, which is presumably what would happen if the funds had been paid in over the counter in fake cash. If the amounts are small enough it would be almost impossible to trace which notes were involved in which pay-ins, so there would be no way to know which accounts to raid to recover the loss the bank made from having accepted counterfeit money.

I thought Andy Pandy was right on this. I understand that a cheque can be reversed at any time. I know it sounds crazy but I thought a bank could never 100% guarantee a cheque.

The above paragraph is from what I have been told on newsgroups or by banks.

Cash would seem to be different. If you pay cash into your account and the bank accepts it I don't see how later they can identify who's cash is fake unless the CCTV cameras can identify the cash when deposited.

"Andy Pandy" wrote

I notice that says: "Always consider other types of payment for high-value items - an automated payment (takes 48 hours) or a CHAPS payment (a same-day service). There is a small charge for a CHAPS payment but it is a guaranteed same-day value payment."

This suggests that those sort of wire-transfers *cannot* be reversed.

However, in thread "Sudden jump in paypal/ebay/other spoof emails" at

Anyone know which is correct?

"Peter Saxton" wrote

I thought that this only applied if the bank had *not* agreed that the cheque was "paid"? [Which is, after all, the usual position - not many people actually bother to ask the bank if the cheque *has* been "paid"!]

And that, in the act of agreeing that is *was* "paid", the bank was therefore guaranteeing the cheque. I suppose it's up to them how much investigation they want to do before saying it *is* "paid"...

Certainly, internet banking transfers can be reversed, and that is the sort of transfers that scammers most often use. They phish for internet passwords and use them to transfer the money to a mule who in turn pays it to them by western union or similar.

I have no idea what the situation with Chaps transfers is. You can't generally do them on internet banking, but you probably can do them over the phone, and phishers could just as easily get the information to get through phone banking security.

CHAPS transfers can only be done in person or by the bank contacting you to confirm details if received by post. They cannot be 'stopped' once processed. Eric

"Jonathan Bryce" wrote

Bradford and Bingley offer this option on their online saver account, but I suspect if you used it, you would simply be issuing a request to them to do the CHAPS transfer, rather than originating it yourself.

"Eric Jones" wrote

Anyone know what APACS mean by "an automated payment (takes 48 hours)" ?

In message , Andy Pandy writes

No

No it just speeds up the ability to see if it was paid.

Here eventually. If Id been a doctor would have ended up as pathologist.

In message , Tim writes

Not me, but Ive seen others use them a lot.

True, so long as the recipient of these comments knows what they mean.

You dont, but 'special presentation' enables you to ask a day earlier.

Yes, but you will have to wait till day 3.

In message , Ronald Raygun writes

Vast improvement this term. 10/10