Strange annuity problem

Is this not part of the arrangements that your accountant made?

If there was only

They wouldn't, but if someone told SL to pay into a different account that would be quite common and not necessarily questioned by the insurance company.

As above

Very possibly. Perhaps you should ask them to send you a copy of this.

After you buy an annuity can you change it to a joint

AFAIK this is not possible.

I get the impresssion that SL have

Possibly. I take it you don't have a record of the amendment if there was one? Or the polcy document, it appears.

I suggest that annuities are rather different. A single life annuity would give more money for both to spend, albeit it would (should) stop when the annuitant died unless there were guarantees built in. If he'd bought a joint annuity and your mother had died first he would have had a lower income from the outset and for no reason.

Rob Graham

Did they have a joint account originally? If so, although the account is solely in your mother's name now, I think any payments received payable to your father would still be credited to the account. Does this help with this part?

Martin.

I had wondered about this. I don't know if my mother or her bank would remember this information after 10 years. However, SL appear to be aware they are paying into an account in my mother's name rather than my father's (or joint).

My mother spoke to a financial adviser today and he suggested the same thing. He thought that SL would definitely want the money back, even if that meant having to sell her house. Not the sort of news an elderly widow wants to hear :-(

I'm still wondering why SL have never made any attempt to make contact in the last 10 years. My parents' address hasn't changed for the last

I don't know what bank's responsibilities are in this area. If money is being paid into a joint account, then one of the account holders dies, are they obliged to inform the organization paying the money?

I don't know either, but I suspect there is no obligation at all on the bank.

You would imagine that SL and other issuers of annuities would keep tabs on their customers, at least checking once a year that they were still alive!

Maybe they have cocked up and will let things drop, who knows?

Meanwhile, Citizens Advice obviously is the first port of call while you wait to hear what SL propose to do.

Hopefully the other annuities and pension plans are in order?

Martin.

That is evidence of his intention but not necessarily of what he achieved. Can you find out the purchase price of the annuity (from your father's bank statements or cheque stubs if you still have them)? If you know the Principal and you know the Annual Sum it should be fairly simple to work out if that purchased a single M or a joint MF annuity.

Your mother should not be worrying. She paid an accountant, it is not something she could reasonably be expected to understand herself, if the annuity was incorrectly paid it will stop but there is *no question* of her paying anything back. All corresondence must be directed to her accountant, it is his responsibility and he has professional indemnity cover.

In message , Troy Steadman writes

I think it is the executor of the deceased's estate is at fault here, not Sun Life or the Accountant. SL are certainly due their dosh back and I cant see any way that they are to blame. So long as they can see that this is a genuine mistake I think they will look kindly on the situation and may be prepared to wait for their dosh until the surviving spouse eventually dies. Paying th4e dosh into an account other than the purchaser of the annuity isnt special, annuitants regularly change the recipient bank account.

You are probably right. The fact that SL haven't stopped the annuity dead in its tracks suggests they aren't sure, and the strategy must be the usual one when dealing with people who aren't sure of their ground:

After many years of getting nowhere the person dealing with it will be promoted or retired, the last thing the new incument needs is the previous ones "can of worms", and the matter will be laid to rest.

The problem in this case in that, after 10 years, the accountant, the executor of the will, the bank and my mother no longer have the records to prove one way or the other. How could we prove that the accountant (or solicitor) messed things up if he has no record of what happened at the time?

"Simon Hancock" wrote

Why doesn't your mother still have records? If the annuity was set up to continue to be payable to her (after your father's death), then she really ought to have kept the proof herself ...

Isn't it a bit like destroying an old building society passbook (with funds in the account), or somebody who owns a house (outright, no mortgage) throwing away the title deeds after 10 years?

In message , Simon Hancock writes

Thats a hard one. The key bit, though, is that the Exec obviously didn't tell Sun Life. If he did tell Sun Life but they took no notice then he should have chased it up. I dont see that the accountant (unless he was also the Exec) or the bank have anything to do with it. Who was the Executor?

I think an open, friendly and honest chat with Sun Life is the answer, possibly via an IFA who is used to dealing with them. Assuming it is Sun Life, and not Sun Life of Canada, I have always found them to be helpful. (I am excluding SL of C only because I have not had much dealing with them, not because I think they are poor)

In message , Tim writes

It is unlikely that this is the case though because Sun Life would have the original annuity papers which would show if it was a joint or single life. Annuities can not be changed from sole to joint mid term.

I take your point but these arent good comparisons because an annuity has no documents of title etc.,

Who has been getting the tax vouchers for the annuity? Regardless of whose bank account the money was going into, I doubt whether Sun Life would have sent the vouchers to anyone than whoever they thought was the annuitant.

"john boyle" wrote

The original annuitant (the OP's father) will have received a letter just before the annuity started, quoting the amount that would (could) be paid, in each scenario. This usually shows different values for a selection of different payment types (single/joint life, with/without guarantee, escalation).

It is this documentation I am discussing.

"john boyle" wrote

Of course.

"john boyle" wrote

We're not talking "documents of title", simply "records".

Actually, she has kept everything. It's only when SL sent this letter that she looked through all her documentation and discovered that she has absolutely nothing from SL. I guess ignorance is no excuse, but she relied on her accountant and solictor at the time to sort out all the details and hasn't had to touch anything since.

In message , Tim writes

I Know, they carry no weight and certainly have nowhere near the relevance or importance of the passbook or house deeds to which you referred.

Quite, but I can fully understand why the surviving spouse saw no reason to keep a a few illustrative letters, which may not have even been in duplicate.

The executor was my parents' solicitor. I don't know if there has been any contact with that solicitor since my father's death. I made the point earlier that I doubt the solicitor would have any record of what he did at the time, so we can't prove whether he contacted SL or not.

It is actually SL of C.

It's just possible that your doubts may be unfounded. Would it not be wise now to make contact with said solicitor to see what records remain of the executry? It can't hurt.

In message , Simon Hancock writes

Why do you doubt such a thing?

so we can't prove whether he contacted SL or not.

Yes you can. Put the ball firmly in his court. Write to him and say 'SLoC are asking for this dosh back because you messed up, Its your fault, what are you going to do about it?

It is apparent to me that it is the execs responsibility. He 'signed off' the estate and he is liable. Nobody else is. If he hasnt kept records, then that is HIS problem, not your mothers.

OK, best of luck then.