utility *scam* to be aware of

It's a good thing that you finally decided to look at what tariff you're on and compare prices, but did you say there was some kind of scam going on? What exactly is the scam? It's not obvious from what you have written here.

Chris

Does the electric meter have two usage counters? Usually marked high / low or night / day?

This is hardly a scam.

The previous owner will have decided for themselves that this was an appropriate tariff (perhaps because they always ran their washing machine overnight) and there is no reason why the leccy board will think to suggest otherwise.

tim

So in 2 years you have not bothered to read an electricity bill and now you think you've been "scammed"?

Words fail.

This is an example of 'it's someone else's fault, not mine' that seems to prevail these days.

Rob Graham

"I want some compensation" are the next four words marching relentlessly towards this thread..........

To be honest there's scarcely anything in it if you have a fridge and a freezer running overnight plus various appliances on standby.

I suppose providers will vary but it wasn't worth us changing back.

It's a very straightforward calculation to make if you have your electricity bill in front of you.

Derek

I doubt it. If you are on an E7 like tariff then you will pay considerably more for daytime units than the single tariff. Given that cheap rate is only 7 hours per day then you would have to be using a *lot* more electricity at night to make it worthwhile.

If you know how much electricity you use at night.

EDF "Eastern region"

Standard "band B" rate 9.94p / kWh

E7 "band B" rate 11.05p / kWh

E7 night rate 5.34p / kWh

So roughly speaking you pay 10% more during the day to get 50% off at night. So if your night use is 1/5 th of your day use you break even.

Remember if you put the washing machine / dryer / dishwasher on first thing in the morning or last thing at night you can save a load or 2 at the daytime rate and get it through at the cheap rate.

Ditto the immersion heater first thing.

Perhaps not exactly a bonanza but not an outrageous scam.

Which is printed on the bill "in front of you".

Derek

We had an economy 7 type arrangement when we lived in West Wales. There were so many power cuts that delayed the meter clock that about every 5 years the meter had to be reset. By the time the reset came round we were getting economy rates during the day and paying full rate at night.

Seemed like a good deal to me:)

Roy.

The co. concerned is selling the same product at different prices to different customers. We're not all math graduates, but in the days of computers it must be pretty easy for them to see which plan delivers the best deal, but they happily go on taking extra from those on the wrong plan. Whether it's a scam is arguable, but it ain't very nice. As I've learned in recent years, let the buyer be (very) aware!

Oh come on! Maths graduate? Don't be so melodramatic.

You do not need a degree in anything to do a little simple primary school level mathematics to see if an Economy 7 tariff is suitable. I had Economy 7 at my old place and used to routinely do a yearly check to ensure it was still the best option for me and I left education at 16!

All you need to know is the rate(s) charged for non-Economy 7 then just multiply that with the numbers of units used, as plainly shown on your bill.

But then I also bother to balance my chequebook at then end of each month but I know people who claim that is impossible without a maths degree too. :-)

What they're actually doing is selling their product at different prices at different times of the day, depending on the level of demand. Rather than being a scam, that seems to make good sense to me. Prices of most things normally fall when demand is less - that's just simple economics. It's no different from telephone calls costing less at off-peak times, or hotels offering cheaper rates during the low-season.

Chris

Oh but it *is* different. Being on a standard electricity tariff is like always going to a hotel which charges the same rates all year, while being on the "economy" tariff is like going to a hotel which applies low-season discounts and high-season surcharges.

With hotels, however, you are free to go to any hotel you like at any time, whereas subscribing to a particular electricity tariff would be more like saying that during any one agreement period (generally for a minimum of one year) you can only holiday in one hotel, and you have to put up with the high-season surcharges as quid pro quo for enjoying the privilege of the low-season discount.

It would be much more reasonable if you could use economy tariff at night and standard tariff during the day, but there seems to be an unwritten rule that you're only allowed one tariff per dwelling.

But we can get the bastards:

In principle households could team up in pairs with their neighbours. One household would be on economy, the other on standard. But they both sell on to each other part of the electricity they buy from their suppliers. That way both of them use cheap-rate power at night and mid-rate power during the day, and neither ever uses any high-rate power at all.

In that case, there would be no point in being on any other tariff and, as people moved over to that structure, the standard rate would increase to match the E7 day time rate, so as to maintain the same total revenue.

In general, it is very uncommon to find pricing structures that truly reflect costs, e.g. GSM SMS messages have a vary low marginal cost, but are charged the same as a 20 or more second call, and just look at the number of inclusive minutes phone tariffs. However, if one wanted to reflect the true costs of electricity supply, the price would have a fixed component, a peak usage component and a usage component. The fuel component may well have a peak usage excess, because of higher fuel costs for certain generation methods.

I believe commercial tariffs are often peak usage based and that reflects the cost of the generating and distribution infrastructure that has to be there, even though not fully utilised most of the time.

How many domestic users would be happy with such a tariff structure?

That looks a lot more favourable than the rates I have seen.

It was someone else who claimed this was a scam, not me.

No it isn't. If you don't already have E7 then this information is not available to you.

Yes it is.

The comment was made in the context of being faced with the decision whether to stay on E7 or to change back to standard, so it was *given* that one already has E7.

Of course, when someone else (who isn't on it) is considering whether it's worth moving the other way, from standard to economy, then obviously they won't have the necessary information already printed on their bill, but it's not exactly difficult to obtain. The rates will be published somewhere, so all one has to do to get an idea of one's present usage is to read one's meter twice a day at the key times for a few weeks. Just the sort of task to delegate to one's teenage kid who's keen on being given some responsibility. :-)