Quicken 2008 Release 5

I used to spend a lot of time beta testing Microsoft products. But the reason I did it was I sold software developed with Microsoft products and that had to run on Microsoft platforms. I felt my investment of time was worth getting advanced knowledge and experience as well as access to very knowledgable people.

I am not using Quicken to develop software nor do I write software that interacts with Quicken. I am simply an end user. I should not have to invest my time in debugging Quicken. I paid for a working product. It is bad enough being forced to upgrade to avoid losing on-line access without having to encounter bug after bug.

I find Quicken's technical support approach to be rather simplistic. For a system this complex to lack basic logging capability simply boggles the mind. I am sure that my latest bug report -- Saved Report Not List [071230-000693] -- will be responded to with the standard: 1. Create a new file and try it 2. Install Quicken into a new directory.

I did get an offer to have someone call me on -- but only during working hours during the week. Tomorrow is the last day of my vacation so hopefully I can arrange the callback. After that I am back in the office during working hours and do not have access to the machine Quicken is installed on.

The funny thing is the bug report they offered to talk to me about is the one they already know about -- the need to map categories to a tax schedule to use business reports like Profit and Lose. Unless they are going to tell me how to turn off this "feature" (which could be done in an email) there isn't anything to talk about. If I can setup the phone call I'll post a follow up describing the conversation.

Like I said in an earlier posting -- I usually stay two years behind which would have been Quicken 2006 H&B. I decided to get current and boy was that a mistake.

I have been us>John Pollard wrote:

There you go Stewart; that's the spirit. As usual, you're just trying to pretend that you are superior to the developers of products that neither you, nor any other developer, could do a better job with. [Did you happen to notice that Quicken's market share has actually increased!?] Gotta love that attitude: you, more than others, deserve what you get. You're only reason for posting is to attempt to prove that you think you are superior ... when in fact, the evidence is to the contrary.

You have provided no information that would benefit other Quicken users ... unless they are as insecure as you, and need to demean the work of others to make themselves feel better.

I'm just waiting for you (or anyone else) to prove that you can produce a better product for the money. When are you going to do that Stewart? When?

Please provide specific evidence of how you would provide better technical support for a product like Quicken. A product that is used by thousands (most likely, tens of thousands of people). And demonstrate an economic model that will make your imaginery product saleable. Prove it, or shut up on the subject.

Quicken has "basic logging capability": for you to be unable to find it "simply boggles the mind".

How do you know that another developer could not do a better job? Does Inutit employ the absolute best developers in the world?

Pot kettle black.

What has spirit got to do with Intuit releasing buggy software and forcing users to upgrade to it?

I stated facts:

1. I am an end user of Quicken not a developer of Quicken related software.
2. I paid for a working product.
3. I should not have to invest my time in debugging Intuit's products.
4. Intuit forces users to upgrade to avoid losing online access.
5. Quicken 2008 has numerous bugs -- some quick serious.

I never said I was superior to the developers of Quicken. However your remark :

is very interesting. It would appear that you believe that no one in the entire world could do a better job of developing Quicken than the current developers. Why do you assume that they are better at development than any other developers in the entire world? Is this based on first hand knowledge? If so please tell us what that is? Did you observe them in operation? Did you compare their code with other developers? How did you arrive at the conclusion that Quicken

I suggest you address the facts >Stewart Berman wrote:

Damn, John, you really have a major chip on your shoulder. Can't you just let things go without getting so pissy and trying to control everyone else? For God's sake, take an SSRI and relax.

Stewart, I suggest ending the endless debate with the newsgroup god, John. He clearly lacks the appropriate social graces, in what appears to be kind of an autistic obsession, to know when to just stop and make nice. All you points are spot-on and appropriate, you don't need to defend your perspective and experience in the manner that this ill-mannered individual is driving you to do.

You got what you paid for; if you don't like it, return it and get your money back. Keeping software that brings you such displeasure sounds irrational to me.

Really? I'm not sure just what you mean by "should not" (emphasis on "should"), but the only way defects in products get fixed is when the person experiencing the defect explains it to someone. The better the explanation, the more likely the problem gets fixed.

In any event, I suspect that Intuit could get by without your debugging help; so if it's such a strain on you, why not just stop doing it?

Hard to tell just what you think is wrong with this. (So does Money by the way). I have no beef with the practice, and I think it has nothing to do with the discussion.

The degree of seriousness of a software bug, like many other things, is in the eye of the beholder; and some users will never even see some bugs. [Note that I didn't suggest that a "bot" wrote your previous sentence.].

But bugs in software didn't just arrive in the year 2007, they aren't limited to Quicken, and they're not likely to go away anytime in the foreseeable future. Why should this be treated as a bulletin? Are you just casting about for "facts"?

You appear to be drifting further and further from whatever you were trying to say in your first post in this thread, whose essential point was basically that your english was superior to the person/bot that replied to you. I have yet to see what purpose that post, or any subsequent post of yours in this thread, served. Is there going to be some benefit to Quicken users from all this?

The burden for proving a claim - in this case that the product can be improved - is on the claimant ... you. That's the claim you have been asserting - even if only by inference - in this thread. Proving such things can be accomplished by demonstrating the existance of a better product for the money, by creating a better product for the money yourself, or paying someone else to create a better product for the money.

It is a trivial matter to find problems with products, all products, including non-software products. It's a very non-trivial matter to prove that one can do it better. And one not only needs to prove that it can be done better, but - critically - that it can be done better for the same cost (it's slightly complicated than that, but I don't believe the added complexity is important to the point).

If cost were not important, it's clear that every product in the world could be made better ... by its existing "developers", or virtually any other set of legitimate "developers".

If the decisions made by the managers of a company do not suit you, by all means let them know what you'd like to see done differently. And if you can find a better product, use it.

If a better product is possible, the market will provide it.

The marketplace is ruthless to producers who can not satisfy customers. Microsoft has enough resources to insure that "money need be no object" when it comes to trying to build a better product than Intuit ... but they have failed to do so. In fact, they actually lost market share in the first eleven months of this year (now having around a 20% share ... after how many years of trying?). Clearly Microsoft is capable of beating out rival's products that were successful before Microsoft entered the fray: witness the demise of Netscape. Why hasn't Microsoft produced that better personal financial software product?

If that "better product" was possible, I believe we would have seen it long ago.

I have no horse in this race, no ox that can be gored: if a better product is possible, I can only gain. If there is some magical team of "developers" out there who can produce a better mousetrap ... where are they? Why haven't they shown up by now?

If you can't demonstrate that it is possible to produce a better value, it is disingenuous (and a cheap shot) to claim, or insinuate, that it can be done. Such claims are often attempts by the claimants to make themselves appear superior, they certainly don't produce any benefits to other customers (as, say, helping to "debug" the product does).

I'm very relaxed actually. I'm voicing my opinion, which I intend to continue to do, which you knew when you made your post.

If you thought the subject should be over, why in the world would you offer your worthless comment ... to keep the subject going, or to have the last word. You don't have to read my posts ... but here you are.

Given your previous comments in this thread, I think you're the one who needs relaxing and you're the one who doesn't get it. I'd say your chip on the shoulder comment was actually autobigraphical.

Keep beating that drum, John.

If "First, Last underscore @ whatever.com" would take his own advice?, then why is it he is doing what he is suggesting you shouldn't?

It's part of the obsession and compulsion...presenting as insecurity, coupled with a need to control. Would be interesting to know if the behavior was predisposed geneteically, or perhaps nurtured by life experiences. It's really fascinating.

Keep trying to think of something intelligent - and truthful - to say, Steve.

On Dec 21, I made my last response to your original attempts to defend your bigotry by obfuscation. You replied to my post and I said nothing. Two days later (and I had still said nothing), you replied to another post of mine that was ten days old.

Six days after I stopped responding to your feeble attempts to defend your bigotry, Mr. Berman reopened the conversation.

So the ones beating the drum here are you and Mr. Berman.

Apparently you believe that the best defense is a good offense; problem is, you have neither.

Does it really matter, John? But really, thanks for providing the chronology of the newsgroup posts, along with your Bill O'Reilly-esque interpretation of the conversation. That was really helpful, and a fine effort on your part. Neither offense or defense! Ha ha, I like that one...you're a real peach, John.

Enough please! Both of you have good knowledge of the product to share with the room. Both of you have made remarks in this exchange that in my world in not acceptable to me. I am here to learn and to seek help with a problem. I no longer see that either of your discussions help in that regard.

Speaking of buggy software from the top-quality developers at Intuit:

Intuit: Patched Mac QuickBooks still deletes data Angry customers file class-action lawsuit in federal court

Just two days after Intuit Inc. said it had finally come up with a permanent patch for a bug in QuickBooks on the Mac that erased files from users' hard drives, the company acknowledged it has not completely fixed the flaw.

Users who apply the patch -- available for manual download since Monday and scheduled to be automatically downloaded to all machines running QuickBooks

Two weeks ago, QuickBooks 2006 users discovered that a buggy automatic update from Intuit wiped all files on the Mac desktop. The company warned customers against using QuickBooks, then recommended that they shift files from the desktop to other folders.

On Saturday, Vacin announced on the QuickBooks support forum that a patch would be available Dec. 31. The patch, he said, fixed the flaw by permanently disabling the software's upgrade mechanism.

Monday, however, he had to post a follow-up warning.

"We have determined that the prior bug re-manifests itself when QuickBooks Pro 2006 for Mac is initiated at public Internet hotspots and a redirection error occurs (for instance, when you are at [an Internet] cafe that requires you to pay to use its services," said Vacin. "We are working to resolve the issue and will have a patch available in the next few days." He urged users not to run the program while within range of a wireless access point....

John neglects to take into account two things when he trumpets that Intuit's marketshare is an indication of the quality of Intuit's development capabilities.

Has Intuit become complacent regarding Quicken and its customers? In my opinion, absolutely. Just look at the stock quote issue. Intuit could have had that code rewriteen from the ground up by now, yet the problem continues to fester. Look at Q2008, and the number of patches needed so soon into the release cycle. Look at the botched Quickbooks patch (another posting).

Intuit's software quality is in a decline, possibly in a free fall.

The lack of real competition due to the high barrier to entry, and the complacency of a large, unchallengeable, market position have reduced Intuit's concern about maintaining a high quality of software.