Times: Fraud victims left in the lurch by banks

At 11:04:45 on 16/01/2006, Ronald Raygun delighted uk.finance by announcing:

They backed down AND offered a £500 goodwill payment to someone they believed was guilty?

At 14:45:59 on 14/01/2006, snipped-for-privacy@tiscali.co.uk delighted uk.finance by announcing:

Why? I have still to see evidence that a cardholder has lost out due to fraud against their C&P card.

Yes. First they believed he was guilty. Only later, after a load of hassle, did they back down.

It shouldn't be necessary to go to the top man. The coal-face staff should be able to sort it out.

At 13:20:47 on 16/01/2006, Ronald Raygun delighted uk.finance by announcing:

So, they backed down.

Yes, but after initially being confrontational and uncooperative. The hassle should not have been necessary. A less assertive customer would have given up and taken the unjust loss.

At 14:27:16 on 16/01/2006, Ronald Raygun delighted uk.finance by announcing:

How's that different to any other customer complaint? How many complaints are made about failed deliveries, dishonoured warranties, non-chip fraud, etc? If customers are happy to put up with crap then crap is what they'll get.

Quite. And see my previous post about the attitude of a local manager who thought she knew what she was talking about. An amateur shouldn't be in the position of being called a liar by the pro when the pro is wrong; someone less sure of their facts would have been well and truly brow-beaten by that woman.

ISTM that reading out a line from an internal report and saying somthing complete different to that written down is a pretty unlikely c*ck-up.

I didn't say thay you said this (sorry if you thought that I did). I said that the Bank did:

The bank's line is that, because one has a Chip and Pin card, it cannot be cloaned under any circumstances.

But it can, because it is *also* a normal mag stripe card.

Provided that the Bank(s) have upgraded ALL equipment that the card may be used in, to be C&P only. This includes every machine, in every county, that one may use a card.

I accept that the C&P functionality cannot be cloaned.

I contest that this is not the same as saying that a card that has a chip on it, cannot be cloaned. This is only true if it has no mag strip (and then it will be useless for use in other countries)

tim

No, but I suspect that there are (will be) lots of people who back down at the first refusal.

tim

At 16:09:09 on 16/01/2006, Mike Scott delighted uk.finance by announcing:

But I had exactly the same from Barclays with a Direct Debit Guarantee question; I was told I couldn't get it refunded without speaking to the company concerned. Poor training is not a Chip & PIN problem.

Having all your money stolen from your bank account has a greater potential to mess up your life than the non-delivery of a package or a dishonoured warranty.

This is an excellent summary of the situation.

But it is certainly a possibility, and I don't want to be a victim. As this case shows, British bank are very quick to assume that their customer is a criminal or at least negligent and hence liable. American banks tend to be more willing to accept the occasional loss in order to maintain good relationship with customers, and to close your account if you appear to be too "risky" a customer.

At 18:39:02 on 16/01/2006, s snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com delighted uk.finance by announcing:

Indeed. But you don't blame the technology in those cases, so why blame it with Chip & PIN?

At 18:44:41 on 16/01/2006, s snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com delighted uk.finance by announcing:

So's being shot on my way home

Quite.

Alex wrote: ...

Agreed. I had the same proiblem with Lloyds a long time ago ("DD debited twice? Not /our/ problem, sir"). But I'd suggest it becomes more critical as with C&P you could, in principle, end up on the wrong end of a fraud prosecution as a result of poor staff training; the same probably isn't true of DD and similar - they're "merely" major hassle.

IMO there simple is /no excuse/ for such poor staff training.

BTW, I wrote to a local Tesco's manager a year ago pointing out that staff didn't know about chip&sig cards, and maybe someone ought to mention their existence. I never received a reply (surprise :-) ) and even now, staff aren't generally aware afaict that some cards will not need PIN numbers. So it's not just the banks.

Alex wrote: ...

Because people know, by and large, what to expect from a warranty or a delivery company or the local chippy. And by and large they know when the vendor is pulling a fast one and when to stand their ground. The same is /not/ true with C&P, which IMO most people are brainwashed to accept as "secure", and which is a thoroughly opaque issue to Jo Public, who /has/ to accept its workings, and the banks' word of honour, on trust.

At 19:05:02 on 16/01/2006, Mike Scott delighted uk.finance by announcing:

You could, but then there'd be more evidence than the bank just saying "Oh no, it's not possible!"