PIN fraud

Someone probably looked over your shoulder when you withdrew cash or made a C&P purchase. This is going to become a serious issue if this idiotic scheme goes any further. Tell the banks to pay up immediately or you'll not only see them in court but drag it through the press. The public needs to be informed that this CHIP&PIN scheme is inherently unsafe.

That's at least two of us who think so. At least with a signature an expert can tell (even if only after the fact) that it was forged. With PIN number, if it works there's no way to prove it was 'forged' (i.e. you were not the user). C&P is only going to work when the 'chip' contains some biometrics (fingerprint, retina scan, voice print, whatever) that are impossible to forge. A 4 digit PIN number ain't it.

I agree. Have you used them in a supermarket? The terminals I have seen (which are designed, AFAIK by the banks) have no privacy at all, anyone nearby can see what you are entering.

As was said on earlier threads, by me amongst others, the purpose of C&P is to protect the banks, not the customers (unlike the ridiculous ads they are currently running which say its for us).

Small Claims Court?

No hacking needed, just the old Mk1Eyeball.

Thanks for all the info. I do tend to agree about the inherent lack of security at C&P terminals in stores - but unfortunately I don't think that's a factor in my case. I haven't come across an in-store C&P terminal yet, and I only ever use my Switch card for cashpoint withdrawals, at cashpoints close to home ... my wallet was stolen from work, 30 miles away, so I don't think it's feasible that someone watched me enter my pin at a cashpoint, then followed me to work, etc, etc.

Chip and Pin has never had anything to do with fraud. The banks are using fraud as the smokescreen to tell you its better and that you MUST know your pin.

The truth is , the banks are getting hammered by press and government about interest rates on credit cards. In order to lower the interest but still earn the same profit , they aim to force people into greater debt by promoting the fact that you can withdraw cash from an atm if you know your credit cards pin .

So Chip and PIn is a smokescreen. Personally , If I cant sign for it then I aint buying it. I will use that papery stuff from the bank called cash.

I work for a bank , and I am now looking to leave as they are in my opinion glorified,legalised money lenders.

Jon

Was your PIN easily guessable and so they got lucky? Was it a PIN that you use at work (perhaps to enter a building or room?) that a colleague might use? ...the same one that stole your wallet?

I am pretty sure the PIN isnt on the card, even encrypted, that would be a _really_ crap design, so either someone was _very_ lucky, or the unpleasant fact is that the stuff was stolen by someone who knows enough about you to either know the PIN or make a good guess at it.

Also, you said that the _switch_ card was only ever used a long way away so its not feasible that someone followed you, but you also said that the PIN was the same on all cards...so who might have known the PIN on one of the other cards?

I agree.

I was in the states a short while back, whilst in a "line", sorry queue at the checkout of a supoermarket, I could clearly see the pin number being keyed by the woman in front of me. There waqs no attempt at hiding the buttons on the keypad!

Yep got to agree.

I have yet to be given the opportunity to enter my pin while using my card but when i do i will refuse. But then i don't know what my pin's are so i couldn't enter them anyway.

I suppose we will have to sue the banks and the supermarkets for not making the environments safe for pin entry.

Some people are really going to get fleeced by the banks here, i suppose we will have to wait for individual cases to be brought to the attention of the public by the media. The Express is very good at sensationalism, and the Sun is very good at winning issues on behalf of the public.

In message , Tumbleweed writes

I once guessed a four-digit combination number on a friend's safe. It was pure fluke. I knew he was keen on mathematics so my shot-in-the-dark guess of '3142' found its mark -- much to the astonishment of both of us.

Ask the bank the following questions: Do you have CCTV coverage of the ATM's where these withdrawals took place? If you don't council or police provided CCTV coverage available?

If your card was used in shops ask your card issuer to supply the shops copy of any transaction slips, challenge your signature and ask the card issuer to determine if your prints are on any of these slips.

Unfotunately PIN negligence is a grey area, to find out more:

Type in "Chip and PIN" (include the inverted commas) in Google, Groups search. I've contributed a lot and I hope you and others can make an informed decision on having a PIN).

James.

My sisters partner had his card cloned after he drew some cash out of a hole in the wall. They drew almost 1000 over a week before he noticed. They used one of those "lebonese loops" which sit in the cash machine slot, and take a copy of all your details when you make a transaction. I don't know my credit card pins and don't want to know, cash withdrawrals are far too expensive. Unfortunately it looks like I am going to be forced into using the pins for these. My husband works in IT and deals alot with security and thinks the chip and pin system is a joke. Unless you have to sign as well or they hurry up and add biometric ids they are open to abuse. Hubby has a fingerprint reader on his hand held diary/ipac thingy so it can't be that difficult. alison

Banks have always been money lenders. It's what they're there for.

Oh no - is there a bank who doesn't lend money?

Bet you used your year of birth or something easily as guessable as your PIN

"JF" wrote

Why not simply 1571 ??

I've suspected this for years.

FoFP

And what privacy is offered at a cashpoint exactly?

usually people stand back from you, and you can also place your body between them and the ATM. Not possible with the C&P devices.

Im not really sure that I see the problem as others in this thread seem to see it. The current 'signature' card has a sig on it which a thief can go away and practice until he gets it reasonably right. Most sig transactions arent properly checked anyway, as any examination of fraudulently used cards will show.

With chip & pin the problem only arises if the card is nicked and the nicker saw the nickee use his PIN and the nickee doesnt realise his card has been nicked and the nicker uses the card before the nickee reports the nicking of his card to the chaps at the local nick and to the CardCo. To me, this is less likely than the forged sig problem.