Selling your home privately in the UK

I would agree that all cross sections of society contain some liars.

Based on my personal experiances in life I believe that commission based sales people have a higher percentage than average of liars.

Based on what evidence?

I told you, my personal experiance.

If you want more evidence try this:

"The National Association of Estate Agents on Friday conceded that housebuilders' accusations of "aspirational pricing" by estate agents, which they claimed had contributed to the stalling of the market last year, were mainly valid"

Do you think this means the valuation was too conservative? There will always (well, not *always*, that's the whole point) be the occasional buyer prepared to offer over the odds, and you were lucky that your agent managed to find you one. I don't think 10% is outrageously far off-target, and the surveyor's valuation was probably entirely reasonable.

Just goes to show how "optimistic" EAs are, doesn't it?

Oh yes, it's always fun to listen to the bitching and back-stabbing. Even more fun when the gossip turns out to be spot on.

Why do you say that? You think they're morons? You underestimate them. They don't overestimate pricings because they're incompetent, they do it deliberately to get business! It tends to work for them.

Not entirely. I meant "marketing skills" to include not only *how* they present your property but also *where* they do so, i.e. whether they make sure the advert reaches the right audience, that which contains the right buyer for your property.

Well yes, it helps to be savvy to their ways, but most people aren't, for the simple reason that they sell properties too infrequently to gain the necessary experience to be able to spot the bullshit in the EA's patter.

Mmmm. No. Marketing skills *are* what makes a good agent. These skills are not measured by how many sales they make, but how many of the sales they make achieve good selling prices. This is the big problem. Those who achieve more sales (per member of staff) at a decent amount of commission will probably achieve a higher salary for themselves, but that doesn't translate directly to achieving the best price for their customer (the seller).

The vendor disregards the agent's advice at her peril.

Only technically. Pitching at the right price is very much part of the selling skill. I think this is true no matter what selling system is involved. There is the Scottish "offers over" system, in which the selling agent (a solicitors firm in the vast majority of cases) takes a guess at how much the property is likely to fetch (say £165k), then scales it down by a skilfully chosen fiddle factor and then advises the client to advertise it at (say) "offers over £139k". With luck it will then attract a spread of offers between maybe £160k and £180k. Some agents here have stronger reputations than others for scaling the advertrised price down excessively in order to drum up more interest (potential sellers (buyers too) need to be Warned about one in particular but I've already given too strong a clue as to their identity, tsk, how naughty of me).

In the English "asking price" system, AIUI the agent takes a guess at how much the property is likely to fetch, and then scales it up by a skilfully chosen fiddle factor to get the asking price, a price likely to be offered by only the minority of buyers. This is similar to the "fixed price" system in Scotland, which it was recently thought would oust the "offers over" system. We do see more "fixed price" adverts here these days than we used to, but they are still firmly in the minority.

No it is not. It is perfectly feasible to run an experiment in which one property is marketed both privately and professionally. It's an experiment you would expect a TV program to run. :-)

This is the improtant thing to get right, and it's not as easy as you think.

Well yes. But most these days put them up on the net and buyers can view them on line.

Unlikely I think, especially in the English chain system, where the vendor is highly likely still to be living in the house she hopes to sell. In Scotland, where there are no chains, there is a greater chance that the property being marketed is empty because the vendor has already moved out.

The usual approach here is that the advert gives fixed open viewing times, when any potential buyers can just turn up without appointment. Traditionally here in Edinburgh these are a couple of hours on Thursday evenings and Sunday afternoons. Generally the vendor is expected to be on duty during those times to show folk round, or to have arranged for someone else to be. If a property takes too long to sell, then the advert gets changed to "viewing by appointment only" (a good hint to put in a low offer). Agents will offer to vendors who can't be bothered to man the premises a showing service, but will usually charge extra for it. It's a good source of beer money for retired folk. Only in the rarest cases would potential buyers be entrusted with keys (typically only when a property is empty (unfurnished) and has been on the market for so long that enquiries are down to a dribble - another clue to putting in a low offer).

You might end up becoming one!

Hi,

There are currently around 350 properties on MonkeyMove.com (we have only been live for 3 months), I admit a drop in the ocean compared to the 300,000 + advertised on RightMove.co.uk, Fish4Homes and propertyFinder.com. But MonkeyMove.com is not a portal and the benefits to our advertisers is not that they will be seen on MonkeyMove.com but that their property will actually appear on portals such as Fish4Homes, HotProperty and over 100 other partner sites this is where 70% of our leads come from (and estate agent leads). Incidentally RightMove will not let us advertise with them as the four majority shareholders for RightMove are estate agents.

We are working with other private ad firms (of which there are over 20) now to pool together all our properties to come up with a credible portal with 1000's of properties. Our biggest barrier to success is not the business model we employ, this is actually our greatest asset, the problem is that in the UK estate agents have a stranglehold on the UK property market and they all work together to protect their margins and keep the small guys out. I urge you to try our free service and if we sell your home then you will have saved a significant sum of money.

Here are a couple of links from credible sources that discuss FSBO in more detail

I phoned an estate agent about a house on Righmove that said awaiting picture and further details. He said that the house had been sold four years ago and that they cannot get it off the Righmove system. Others that I have phoned about have been under offer or sold without that information getting on to the Righmove web site. Derek.

It's actually an experiment I've just run. I put our place on the market in August (despite it being the "slow season"). Asked three local agents for valuations. One (smaller firm) came in ultra low, the other two (larger, well established firms) came in at the same price. I picked one of the larger firms, negotiated both the commission and lock-in down and appointed them as sole-agent, with the caveat that I'd also try to sell it privately.

For my private marketing I listed the place on a number of sites (including monkeymove). After doing a bit of research it seemed to me that, while many of the private sale sites had limited traffic, the key was to get into the agregators such as fish4 etc. This generally involves a fee. I paid about UKP150, split between two sites. FWIW I listed it at the same price as with the agent.

Incidentally, this might be a good time to mention one interesting site

- ononemap.com, which scrapes the private sale sites, agregators and estate agent sites, and plots the properties on google maps - lovely interface.

Over a three week period I got a good number of enquiries. Monkemove wasn't bad, but houseladder was better. Gumtree.com was free and also good. After filtering out the wobbly ones (419s, badly written notes from free mail accounts with numbers in the address etc) I got about three times as many viewings as the agent, all people I'd been able to check out in some way before divulging the address.

Three weeks later I'd sold, at a price very close to what I'd hoped for. In fact it equated to getting more than I'd hoped for once I factored in not having to pay commission. This was when the agent suddenly got active and started asking me whether I'd let him try to get me more. Cue "Which part of I've given my word don't you understand?"

I'd hoped that being in competition with me might motivate the agent to work harder, but that didn't seem to happen. Sadly, the area I'm buying in doesn't have much in the way of private sales (at least not over the Internet) so I'm having to go through agents there. Thinking about it, if I (as a buyer) am doing the research, picking out the house I want and going to the agent saying "I want to buy this house" then I'm already doing most of the selling work. Furthermore, in most of the places we've looked at buying we've been shown round by the vendors, despite going through an agent. So perhaps there really wasn't much more the agent could have done to sell my place. Although writing a description that wasn't crap might have helped.

Your sole personal experience is hardly evidence of anything.

Your quote, from the link, is taken out of context ( a factor you accused me of in an earlier posting from you) and for the benefit of those few reading this thread here is the full quote of Peter Bolton King for the NAEA: -

The National Association of Estate Agents on Friday conceded that

housebuilders' accusations of "aspirational pricing" by estate

agents, which they claimed had contributed to the stalling of the

market last year, were mainly valid. "I would accept that," said

Peter Bolton King of the association. "Some estate agents

persistently overpriced over the past year."

There were examples, he said, of agents overvaluing properties solely

to get instructions from homeowners. But there were also big numbers of

homeowners who refused to lower valuations in spite of months of

inactivity.

In this fuller quote Peter Bolton King is saying "some" (you will always get the rogue element in all walks of life) and "were examples".

Can ask what line of work you are in? And is it noted for its 100% integrity because that is not how life is?

I suspect your last comment is the agent not doing their housework - not getting it off the system as it is perfectly easy to use as any similar web based listing system. If you can't do it by the usual method of user interface get the web company to remove it - a few minutes work. But you seem to dwell on this as "here is the proof folks look what I have uncovered". Haven't you anything more than this?

Yes

Did the agent find the buyer, or did the buyer find the agent ? I suspect that most serious buyers register with all agents they can find in a particular agent and would find the property whoever it was with.

I did say OVER 10%, we achieved 50k more than the surveyors valuation.

Maybe it shows how difficult it is to value properties.

Well if they go around doubling figures that have been agreed as the commssion rate before putting them in the contract......

Or benefit

It is definately expected to receive and accept offers below the asking price

I didnt say it was easy to get right, I just said it was one of the things you actually get.

It happened.

Not if it was an executor sale.

They obviously aren't using it correctly.

I'm currently using it to find rented accom and have seen some agents remove their properties the instant they have them 'under offer'.

tim

I am in IT. AFAIK it doesn't have a bad reputation for integrity, maybe for going over budget / timescales and the occasional enormous Gas Bill or demand for payment of -1p.

Every profession or service will have its share of rogue traders and liars but they will also have the good ones and what has annoyed me about the tone of you posts is the constantly negative, rude and aggressive stance you take towards them. Perhaps in your perception most Estate Agents are all liars, thick or whatever other accusations you have made where I feel it is another case of the law of averages. Out of every ten of 'whatever' you will get the average, those above and those below because that is the human race.

Let me be very clear I do know the reality in Estate Agency as I work in a related field. Some are bloody greedy, some are bloody arrogant and some are bloody useless but I also know those who are bloody good, not greedy and work very hard to offer a really good service. The better ones usually in my view are the smaller 1/3 office firms where the partners are very 'hands on' with long serving staff. They also seem to get very high repeat from satisfied clients and very high amounts of business from happy clients who have recommended them.

I have experience of agents bulking out their web sites, to make them look bigger, with properties that have been sale agreed, contracts exchanged, legally completed and even those which have been taken off the market. Not sure if this is OK with Trading Standards but does pee me off.

Ken

I think you're wrong, then. For any given property, there will always be a wide spread in how well it will appeal to each of a number of different people who have come to view it. This appeal is reflected in the price they are prepared to offer. To some, the property will scream "must have", to most it may simply be OK. A valuation is a well-educated guess, probably based on there not being any outrageously strongly attracted buyers who will offer much over the odds, the valuation simply establishes "the odds".

Relative to a valuation, some sellers will end up being pleasantly surprised by a much better offer, some will be disappointed if their expectation is not met. Just be happy you fell into the first group, and don't blame the valuer. You would expect (as indeed you found) an EA's valuation to be higher than a surveyor's, and so it shouldn't surprise you that all your EA valuations were higher than the surveyor's.

Buyers register with agents? I find that pretty ludicrous. Here most potential buyers simply browse the ESPC weekly list (or ESPC website) and then just turn up (or make appointments) for viewings. I guess in theory you can register in the sense of asking to be notified if a property meeting certain criteria comes on the market, but I don't see that as being particularly useful. Unless the criteria are specified quite tightly, you'd end up being notified far too often, but really one's criteria tend to be more flexible in that a property which lies just outside one's pre-specified parameters may turn out to be ideal yet you'd never get to know of it. Nah. Browsing is far better.

I can't remember what you said the valuation was, so I can't work out how many percent 50k corresponds to. I guess it's not THAT much more than 10% or else you'd have said something like "almost 15%". Even

15 or 20% would not strike me as too exceptionally off.

Of course it's not easy, because you never know if there will be a buyer to whom your property is exceptionally well suited. In most cases I think such a buyer will not be found, and the valuation is a best guess given a buyer who is well-impressed by your place, but not ultra-well-impressed.

I meant that it is the most important thing you actually get. If that is got wrong, you'll be less likely to find the right buyer, you'll achieve either a lower price or have to wait longer, or both.

All the rest, brochures, showing, etc, are trivial and cheap. You pay for the quality of the advertising and marketing.

Fair enough, but that doesn't mean it wasn't unlikely. The unlikely does happen from time to time, you know. Just as it was unlikely to get 50k more than valuation. Was it the people who showed themselves round who ended up buying it? :-)

It happens in England - Not being an EA I dont know how often, you walk into an EA's office and ask what properties they have that meet a certain criteria and then they put you on a list and send you anything new that comes in within your criteria (and outside it).

Why not do both ?

I didn't say what the valuation was.

The surveyor said 420k max The EA's ranged from 450k to 525k It was put on the market for 495 and sold for 485.

And yes, everyone did mention the 500k stamp duty limit.

But there are very limited opportunites for advertising.

I'm not sure if the picture of the property showing someone else's garden instead of the right one actually helped or hindered the process.

Yes, they were given a key on their second visit. And could have moved in and claimed squatters rights.

I believe I initailly made one negative post, all others have been in response to you or others 'discussing' (or not) the issues.

I'm sure that there are many good EA's as there are many good people in other professions and I apologise if I inferred otherwise.

Yes. I mentioned earlier that I'm in Edinburgh. In Scotland virtually all estate agency business is done by solicitors firms which then also do the conveyancing for the seller. In Edinburgh, most property solicitors are members of a "club" which pools the marketing. The weekly list is available free of charge from all participating firms. This club is the Edinburgh Solicitors Property Centre. There are similar SPCs in other cities, e.g. GSPC, PSPC, etc.

It's a bit like having a bath and then a shower, innit.

All the more reason to get them right. It's exposure in the right places that really counts. The cards have to be up in windows the buyers are most likely to look in.

Heh. Was it a mistake or an actual view from one of your rooms?

I'm not up on squatter law, but I think you must be mistaken. If you've been invited in and been given a key, this invitation is subject to implied conditions, notably that the invitation is for the sole purpose of viewing and none other, and that you must return the keys and leave the property secure. You cannot acquire squatter's rights from such an invitation, any more than a tenant can acquire squatter's rights via a tenancy agreement (which also involves the giving of keys) by simply stopping paying rent and staying put.

No. Browsing means you might happen against something that looks good even if its out of your normal criteria, being registered means that you might get earlier availability, eg they will call you (or email you) proactively when something that meets your criteria comes onto their books rather than waitin for you to happen across it. So you'll get earlier notice of it than you would have, and than a general 'browser' would. And be on an equal footing with others looking for the same sort of property.

I have just visited all the agents locally for house info and tried to avoid 'registering' as I only have a temporary accomodation address.

None of them thought that I was a serious buyer and were disinclined to show me around when I asked about specific properties.

Their loss.

tim