1. Home
  2. UK Finance Discussions
  3. 0870 rip-off / Oftel Consultation

0870 rip-off / Oftel Consultation

(Apologies if similar postings have already appeared recently)

0870 Rip-Off - Please act now!

You are probably aware of the growing use of 0870 telephone numbers. You may also be aware that these calls, despite being widely known as 'national rate', can cost much more than national calls. Virtually all operators charge around 8p/min for daytime calls to these numbers, whereas standard national calls can be made for around 2-3p/min.

The reason why 0870 calls cost more is basically because a proportion of the call charge goes to the telephone company who 'owns' the line you are calling (e.g. BT or Cable & Wireless), and in some cases this revenue is shared with the company you are calling. This is also why the use of 0870 numbers is increasing - it allows companies to make more money out of you, especially when you are "on hold".

DO NOT believe BT customer services if they tell you that you will only pay 3p/min for daytime calls to 0870 numbers, (e.g. with BT Together tariff) - THEY ARE LYING TO YOU! Check your phone bill if you don't believe it.

If you want to read a conspiracy theory on 0870 numbers, its on

formatting link
For another opinion on 0870 numbers, go to
formatting link
(I don't know who the author is). But to the point: Oftel, the telecoms regulator, recently produced a consultation document, as they have finally acknowledged (after nearly five years) that there is some sort of problem. You can download it from
formatting link
However, this document is extremely length and confusing, and serves to complicate an issue that is very simple from the consumers' perspective. It also appears to show that Oftel are more concerned with maintaining the revenues of telephone companies than ensuring cheaper phone calls for the public. Responses to this consultation can be made until 30th December 2003. Therefore, PLEASE let them know that you are unhappy with the current arrangements, and that you want them to focus their attention on cheaper calls for everyone, not maintaining high revenues for the telecoms industry.

Unfortunately I am unable to recommend a particular option of the five given by Oftel, because the whole document is so confusing and, in places, misleading. Unless you are able to digest the options, please tell Oftel that they need to produce a clearer document to consult the public on, or whatever else you feel about the issue - some suggestions are given below.

Oftel have to publish the results of the consultation, which is why it is important people act now, before the 30th December deadline. If people like you don't respond, Oftel will get away with it, and more expensive calls may be here to stay.

How to respond - all you need to do is send a few brief comments, something like:

Dear Ms Greenberg I am responding to the consultation "0845 and 0870 numbers: Review of retail price and numbering arrangements". I am unhappy with the high cost of calling 0870 numbers / I am unhappy with the very confusing consultation document / I am unhappy that Oftel has taken several years to properly raise this issue / I feel that further consultation should be undertaken / I am disappointed that Oftel does not appear to be putting the interest of consumers first/ (or whatever you wish). Yours sincerely, (name, address)

Send you comments to: snipped-for-privacy@oftel.gov.uk (until 16 December 2003) snipped-for-privacy@ofcom.org.uk (after 16 December 2003) or Liz Greenberg Oftel

50 Ludgate Hill London EC4M 7JJ Tel: 020 7634 8758 ** Remember the deadline is 30th December **
Reply to
Pete Williams
Loading thread data ...

But this is only because the cost of making national geographic calls has reduced whereas the cost of 0870 hasn't.

Forcing a reduction in 0870 cost will also drive down 0870 termination revenue which would mean uncertainty of income for telephony operators. Because of tight margins this could force some out of business which would be bad for competition which could ultimately will drive prices up.

0870 in itself is not a rip-off. It's a rate that is as valid as any other. Yes, there will be some companies who will profit by putting you on hold for ever and I agree these companies are low-life, but the fact remains that 0870 is a valid tariff.

I also agree that it should not be called "national rate" anymore, since BT is now charging less than this for geographic national calls under some of their call plans. It could be argued that their standard national rate is the same as 0870, but I doubt many people are on non-discounted call plans.

Maybe it should be called "national intelligent network rate" or "national non-geographic rate" or something.

Regards Andrew

Reply to
Andrew Crane

"Pete Williams" wrote

Why should I lie, just for you? I am quite happy with the arrangements actually...!

"Pete Williams" wrote

Ermm - won't "further consultation" take even *longer* ? - If you're complaining about the time taken, surely you'd want no further consultation??!

Reply to
Tim

shows "standard national calls" from BT cost from 6.33 to 7.91p/min if you don't use BT Together.

I've no dispute of there being a lot of options (including even BT) at

3p and down to 1p a minute) but there are many reasons for 0870 being useful to callers and recipients where services are being provided (eg voice to e-mail, fax to e-mail) and there are numerous services where the recipient gets no "revenue split". Far too many seem to assume that an 0870 is a "rip-off number being used for a recipient to profit from the caller". Anyway, that's my twopenneth. Peter.
Reply to
Peter Morgan - 0870 432 9631

Am I right to assume you make good money from this scam then?

Reply to
BitsAndBobs

I admit I tend to give most of my business where possible to folks who use geographic, 0800 or 0845 - there's enough competition about for the most part. However this is simply a choice I make.

With very few exceptions, there will be a different firm/service you can call instead of the 0870 number. when there is NO option, then yes, you will pay what used to be the normal rate for a national call. No, it isn't discounted down to thelevels that we now enjoy for most national calls.

My biggest peeve is when 0870 and 0871 are advertised as LOCAL rate (which funnily enough occured on TV this morning when they gave out some sort of helpline number). I suspect a genuine error this morning but when you see it in the same advert week in, week out, you tend to think there is some funny business going on.

If you really want to make a point, you may get the opportunity (as I did recently with DHL's accounts) if you are going to contact a firm to alert them of an error on their part. Inb my case (DHL), they sent me an invoice for Customs VAT and a handling charge - only the items in questions (pyjamas from the middle East as I recall!) were nothing whatsoever to do with me - even the delivery address on the enclosed "docket" was different) . I was going to call them to advise them of their error but decided on principle that I would not call their 0870 number and pay for the priviledge of helping them get their act together. It's bad enough waiting on hold with DHL when it's something in your interest.

As a result, they have since incurred the cost of sending me two further invoices, a debt collection agency has written twice and a solicitor (last letter) has announced they are going to issue a County Court Summons. That I will acknowledge by post, pointing out that my address and the address the goods were delivered to are totally different and have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with me. I will also explain that as a point of principle I was not prepared to queue indefinately on an 0870 number to help them to correct their incompetence, had they, the debt collection agency or solicitor's used an 0800 number or enclosed a freepost envelope then they would have saved themselves some legal costs.

That said, you might not have as much time on your hands to play silly games as me ;)

Mark

Reply to
Mark

"BitsAndBobs" wrote

Nope, you are quite wrong - I make no money at all from 0870's, as I don't have any. I am happy to *pay* for a service, that's all!!

Reply to
Tim

I cannot answer for the other poster, but I, and my clients, are very happy to make use of 0870 numbers for contact, thanks. No, I don't make a penny from the number, because that covers costs for converting your voice and sending it to me by e-mail. Feel free to give it a ring and express your views, if you wish! PGM

Reply to
Peter Morgan - 0870 432 9631

arrangements

"Tim" wrote

Reply to
Tim

But you are getting a good service from that (Converting Voice to Email), companies that use 0870 like $ky Televison are just screwing people and are making money from the call (last I heard it`s 2-3p per minute profit per line)..

Regards BitsAndBobs

Reply to
BitsAndBobs

So ringing a Call Centre Like say Sky or an Insurance Company for example i`m getting a service via the call charges?

There was me thinking my Subscription/Premium Covered this, oh well my way of thinking must be madness then :p

Reply to
BitsAndBobs

"BitsAndBobs" wrote

Well, you could say that the tiny extra amount paid by the customer calling the 0870 line, goes some (very small) way towards paying the wages of the call centre operator who you speak to. Come to think of it, perhaps they should *lower* the subscription/premium very slightly and *increase* the "extra" paid on call charges, so that only those customers actually calling the call centre end up paying their wages? The call charges would then have to be much higher!!

Reply to
Tim

Actually that sounds a great idea!

Reply to
BitsAndBobs

I, for one, will be emailing OFTEL about this issue, as I get really annoyed with companies using 0870 and declaring "charged at the national rate". Actually, national rate for me is 1p per minute for non-geographical numbers (+1 p connection). Calling an 0870 is therefore a minimum of 8 times more expensive! Same principle applies for 0845 "local rate".

So, Oftel, lets get it sorted. As others have said, I don't mind the 0870 tarrif being there, but the charges need to be made clearer.

Rob

Reply to
Rural Computer Centre

"Rural Computer Centre" wrote

I'm confused - what "non-geographical numbers" are there which are *not*

0870 (or 0871..) ?
Reply to
Tim

Fine, we use 870 numbers and customers call them. However we never advise customers what calls to this number would be charged at - how are we to know what talk plan, discount scheme, etc. they are on?

If a customer doesn't want to call our 870 number there is always the backup 07 number (but that would often cost them more to call).

Reply to
Hiram Hackenbacker

Isn't any 08x number classed as non-geographic as apposed to 07x, which while being non-geographic, is normally classed as "mobile".

Reply to
Hiram Hackenbacker

A perfectly reasonable response. The study is not a true representation without these responses.

In may ways I agree with you:

- I am a user of 0870 numbers for incoming calls purely for call routing, voicemail, line hunting and lots of other services BT would simply not be able to provide in the same way or would charge me stupid amounts for.

- I recognise that not everyone using 08x numbers is doing it for the money (e.g. BBC apparently don't) and that there are benifits with regards to time of day routing, stopping misdials waking people up in the middle of the night, having easily memorable numbers, load spreading etc.

- I don't mind calling an 0870 number where I get good service

- I recognise that companies are trying to provide a good service on these ranges when that have a clear system allowing you to get through and speak to someone quickly.

What i'm not happy about:

- Companies that don't employ enough people to answer their calls

- Companies that have millions of options, blurbs about emailing them etc delaying the time it takes to be put through but ask you all the same questions again when you do get through (I called one company the other day that was aware of what i'd selected but i've forgotten who, its an exception though and shouldn't be).

- Companies that hold callers and charge loads of money with no idea how long it is going to take - provide an engaged tone or say how long with the message for a callback

- Companies that dump your call after ages on hold

- Companies that nicely insist that they call you back but never actaully do.

- Companies that are perfectly happy to ring you and ask 'how did we do', 'would you be interested in', 'is everything ok now' when you know full well that there aren't enough people at the other end but you just want to get it over with.

- Call centers that don't allow you to get through to someone that knows what they are doing (3 india).

None of this relates directly to 0870 numbers (there is nothing wrong with an 0870 number that gives an engaged tone if its busy), it relates to misuse.

What I do think is wrong:

- That mobile companies are happy to route to other mobile networks inclusivly but not 08x numbers which must be cheaper but can be used as stealth as they are not the headline rate.

What should happen:

- The 05x corperate range should be used more seperating call centers from the residential customer one number different and with good support for complicated routing.

- The above range charged as 01/02 national geographical ENFORCED by oftel on all price plans fixed and mobile.

Sam

Reply to
Sam Albrow

Or basically if you did tell your customers the cost of the call they may feel abit P!ssed..

Reply to
BitsAndBobs

Bollocks. The rate your 0870 number is charged out at does not effect the end users' arrangements any more than the details of other tarrifs would. You are simply being evasive.

Reply to
Mike

BeanSmart website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.