Extraordinary abuse by Tiscali.

They don't. They accept the word of the organisation who registers the direct debit, having earlier performed extensive enquiries into the probity of that organisation. If an unauthorised direct debit is registered, either by mistake or through fraud, the bank will refund any money that's been wrongly debited, immediately and without question. And the organisation concerned may very well lose the ability to register direct debits electronically.

Mike.

No more fraudulent or illegal than processing a DD without your authority.

---------------snip---------------

You are correct about the vulnerabilities of Credit Cards. However there is one very IMPORTANT difference between debiting my CC Account & a DD on my Bank Account. In the 1st case it is only an item on a Statement (thus giving time to resolve), in the 2nd case it is money gone from my Account - therefore stopping other essential transactions.

You are also correct about the DD Guarantee is "just what it says"!! I had a DD go wrong & the Bank told me that they were NOT liable because the DD Mandate had been, effectively, "Any Amount, Any Time" (my words, not the actual terms), as I hadn't over-written the pre-printed terms with the specific amounts & the specific dates of payment. I have yet to see a pre-printed DD Mandate that wasn't, effectively, "Any Amount, Any Time"!!

Regards, John ps Getting back to the original Poster's queries, I still think sending out a couple of Recorded Delivery Letters will be his safest option!! jjb

Which I have already stated that I think is illegal!!

Regards, John

It's quite possible for a mistake to be made without there being any fraudulent intent. What you describe would indeed be illegal if fraud is intended but that's not the question you originally asked: it's not, by itself, illegal for a direct debit to be set up without the customer's signature being passed to the bank.

Mike.

The bank were NOT following the rules! You should have stood your ground. What you are referring to is a variable authority that allows the company to charge different amounts on different dates. I have one for my BT telephone bill, amongst other, where the amount varies and the date does by a day or two as well. It works very well and as I say I have only ever had to cancel one and it was dealt with promptly and efficiently. The company apologised for their mistake and the funds were replaced the same day. If you do ask for a DD to be stopped it is a complete cancellation so a new one will have to be set up if you decide you want to continue after the problem has been resolved.

And possibly the large amount they have to 'put upfront' in order to be given the privilege of instigating DDs.

Electronic signatures are legal.

In message , John J. Burness writes

I had exactly the same problem with a DD. The guarantee said "...any payment outside the terms of this instruction..." but the terms were so wide (unspecified amounts on unspecified dates - IOW "take as much as you want whenever you want") that it wasn't possible for the "originator" to do anything outside the terms.

In message , John J. Burness writes

A direct debit recently 'went wrong' for me.

I set up a DD with one of my credit card companies: CapitalOne. Unfortunately they managed to assign my bank details to another of their customers and instead of having £9.00 DD from my bank account, over £190 was taken.

I contacted CapitalOne. They admitted liability, but said I'd have to claim a refund from my bank.

Okay, I didn't think that would be a problem. My bank, Halifax, offers

24/7 banking, so I gave them a call. "CapitalOne have to refund you then money" was the answer from Halifax. I reminded my bank about the DD guarantee, but was told that I'd still have to get a refund from CapitalOne. I suggested to the Halifax representative I was speaking to that he popped off and actually read the DD guarantee. He comes back and says that I must "visit my branch" for a refund. Strictly speaking this is true because that's what the wording in the DD guarantee actually says.

However, DD is touted as being the easiest way to pay. DDs can be setup electronically and are processed electronically, however when something goes wrong a trip to a local branch is required. Quite amusing, really, when some banks are closing branches throughout the country and promoting the use of telephone banking. :)

Anyway, although it was inconvenient, I visited my local Halifax branch (Trowbridge, Wiltshire) for a DD refund. 'Helpful' guy behind the counter clicked away at his keyboard and kept saying it wasn't their problem. He eventually asked what appeared to be a supervisor what he should do. Fortunately she was aware of the DD guarantee and I got my money back - eventually.

The process of doing the refund seemed to be very longwinded and took quite a long time for them to achieve. Banking staff and the computer systems they use seem to be unaware of the DD guarantee. Perhaps they should pop off to

and read the details. It doesn't make any difference whether your bank or the company requesting money by DD makes a mistake. It's the bank that's responsible for giving their customer a refund.

IMO if the customer believes there has been a mistake the customer should get a refund. Then let whoever requested the original payment take the matter up with the customer.

The problem is that, regardless of whether there is a requirement to ONLY have FIXED amounts, the Mandate that is ALWAYS supplied is an "Any Amount, Any Time" Authorisation!! I haver NEVER seen a Mandate which has had printed on it the actual Payment Details!!

Accordingly, the Bank were adamant that they were ONLY guaranteeing to action the precise details of the Authorisation, which they had done!! Legally & Contractually, the Bank was correct - any action that the Bank took "over & above" this was purely down to them doing me a "favour" to benefit a "good Customer" (in fact they did evetually pull strings & sorted it)!!

Incidentally, in my case, cancelling the DD (which I eventually decided that I wanted to do) was NOT an option - well it was an option, providing I accepted that being thrown out of my House was also an option!!

Regards, John

That was precisely my situation!!

Even where the payments terms are for a specified amount at specified times (mine were monthly payments for an Endowment Policy), I have yet to see a DD Mandate that isn't "Any Amount, Any Time"!!

Regards, John

The question that I asked was:- "Surely a Bank can ONLY allow access to a Customer's funds, once the Bank has establish that appropriate authority has been provided by the Customer?? "

I have yet to see any info that convinces me that there can be situations where the Bank is permitted to allow UNAUTHORISED access to my money!

If the Bank has NOT established that it has appropriate Customer Authority, what legal right does it have to permit funds to be withdrawn from a Customer's Account?

I would have thought that, under the Banking Laws, a Bank has a legal duty to safeguard its Customer's money & ONLY permit withdrawals when it satisfies itself that such a withdrawal is with the knowledge/Authorisation of the Customer.

Additionally, if A.N.Other Company "knowingly" submits a DD Mandate that it "knows" does NOT include my Authorisation the question has to asked over whether it has advised my Bank that it has NOT obtained Authorisation or whether it pretends that Authorisation has been obtained. Under this scenario, assuming money is withdrawn, the Bank has operated illegally (under the Banking Laws) in the first instance & the A.N.Other Company has operated Fraudulently in the 2nd instance.

Regards, John

Its not, however much you might like it to be.

Brian

And, in my experience, they alsways write to the customer saying a DD has been set up.

It is NOT a case of what I would "like it to be"!!

A Bank permitting unauthorised access to my Account would be breaking the relevant Banking Laws.

A.N.Other Company making representations to try to obtain money from my Account "knowing" that they were doing it without my knowledge/authority is Fraud/Theft.

Which particular Law, are you thinking of, would enable either the Bank or the DD Company to legally ignore the above legal requirements?

Regards, John

Have you ever signed up online (or via the phone) for an ISP or a mobile phone company, and given your bank details for the monthly contract/rental?

You will usually find that somewhere on the online T&C's or on the Paper T&C's sent after you signup will include a copy of the DD garauntee, and the terms of a signatureless direct debit.

The bank will only question a DD without a signature if the customer questions the bank about it.

yep, same here with an Egg card DD payment. Was paying a fixed monthly amount (obviously the day shifts slightly month by month hance variable).

I changed the monthly amount shortly after the last billing date. One month later they still billed me the old ammount. Quick phone call to egg sorted that out. If that hadn't worked, the bank would have been my next port of call.

No I haven't!!

Taken from

Q How do I set up a Direct Debit? A You can either complete a Direct Debit Instruction, obtained from the organisation you wish to pay, and return it to them or, with some organisations, you can set up Direct Debits over the telephone or via the Internet. The organisation will then forward your instructions onto your bank authorising them to make payments from your account to them.

That clearly means that, REGARDLESS of whether it is a paper or a Telephone order, the Organisation MUST forward "your instructions" to the Bank!! ONLY when the Bank has received "your instructions" can they permit payment from your Account. If the Bank, under this situation, permitted payment, they would be contravening Banking Laws.

There is NO mention, anywhere on the DirectDebit Web-Site, that provides any authority for the Bank to permit DD withdrawals without receiving "your instructions".

By definition, if any Organisation tries to supply information, to your Bank, that purports to be "your instructions", when you have no knowledge of it or you have NOT provided these instructions then that is clearly Fraudulent &, hence, illegal.

May I also go back to the original poster's point, quote:- "What they have done is to used my old account details to set-up or attempt to set up a direct debit for purposes unknown to me"

Does this imply that Tiscalli have obtained his instructions? - NO!! Did Tiscalli take his information from him (i.e. confirming it is a valid instruction) or did they just look up within their old files?? - LOOKED IN OLD FILES, HENCE THEY KNEW THEY HAD NOT OBTAINED VALID INSTRUCTION!! Does this imply that Tiscalli are trying to set up a DD Mandate without his knowledge/permission?? - YES!! Based on the DirectDebit Site, would this provide the Bank with the Customer's Instructions?? - NO!!

Regards, John