C&P at supermarkets

I am now refusing to hand my card to the cashier if they have a machine

- I want to be in physical control of that card at all times!

John Lewis - complete control of the process. Morrisons - only accepted signature. Rail - reader my side of the bullet proof glass - complete control. Post Office - must decide type of Maestro card first - UK or foreign but I have complete control. Tesco - take the card and place into their EPOS - have to type my PIN into reader (which isn't directly reading my card of course). This is the option I least like.

Sainsbury's (two stores - so not perculier to just the one I call my local), insist on having the card, even though the machine with the number bad on has two slots (top and bottom). When I once inserted the card into the machine myself, the cashier got all flustered and grabbed my card, and they swiped it in her own EPOS then asked me to enter the PIN. I should have refused, asked for my card back and then walked out the shop with a trolly full of already scanned goods.

Another perculier one is Petsmart (aka Pets At Home) which asks you to press OK to confirm the amount, then enter PIN, then press enter (green button).

"Oscar the Cat" wrote

Eh? You're saying you should have left with the goods, but without paying???

Why not? He has bought them, after all. This has created a debt which he has every intention of settling in due course. What's the problem?

Yeah, made me feel like a prat the other day. 'Ohhhhh you shouldn't have put your card in the keypad, we have to swipe it!'

Daytona

"Ronald Raygun" wrote

Practically, the security staff of the door? ;-)

Technically, though - he has "offered to buy", but has the supermarket "accepted" the deal before payment has been made? :-(

snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote

Yes, it would make things better, but having requested my C & P card months ago as soon as it was available, I have got used to all this. :)

I'm sure they know that if they so much as touch you, they're dead. In the sense that you can have them sent down for assault, etc.

Absolutely.

Step 1: Shop advertises price. Invitation to treat. Step 2: You present the goods. "I offer to pay the invited price". Step 3: Item scanned. "I confirm your offer to be satisfactory, i.e. I accept your offer to pay 19p for this can of chopped tomatoes". Step 4: "That'll be £45.60, Sir. How would you like to pay? Cash, cheque, payment card, or account?"

Clearly step 4 acknowledges that the debt has been created and is presenting options for settling it.

Oh, and before you start, I glossed over a few repetitions of steps (1,) 2 and 3 lest you be minded to query how 19p suddenly became £45.60. No, I didn't buy 20 dozen cans of squashed tomatoes.

Jim.

I was wondering about blind users. AIUT they should be able to use the system because the buttons are standard layout (?) and the 5 has a raised spot etc. But if use is dependant on following instructions on the screen ie confirm amount, add tip, enter PIN. It must make it more complicated.

A customer a couple of days ago told the story of a guide dog, probably in a paper, that apparently has been trained to put the card into the slot and remove it afterwards. ( The owner still has to enter the PIN - No chance of the dog using it at Petsmart on it's own!). Interesting pictures come to mind of arguments between cashiers and the dog.

"Ronald Raygun" wrote

So they won't stop shoplifters as long as they pass through the till before running off with the goods?

"Ronald Raygun" wrote

Have you ever tried this?

Isn't the "offer to buy", and thus the acceptance, conditional on the buyer paying before leaving the shop?

Otherwise you'd have everyone walkiing into Dixons, asking for a huge plasma telly, then at the checkout saying "thanks for the sale, but I'll pay you later" ... then walking off with the telly (on interest free credit until sometime later!).

rob wrote: ...

Also, a blind person would be totally unable to ensure the security of the PIN as he entered it.

In message , Ronald Raygun writes

The problem? Section 3 of the Theft Act 1978 "Making off without payment"

Something like that. I think they have the power to "arrest" (i.e. detain) you only if they have sufficient cause to believe that an offence (i.e. theft) has been committed. If you actually buy the goods and announce your intention to pay later, it can no longer be theft and becomes a civil matter. :-)

Too shy.

You can't be serious. The offer certainly is not conditional, though the shop may well like the acceptance to be. But I don't think it is. It is fundamental to contract law that there exists separation between its coming into being (through offer and acceptance) and the things agreed therein actually being carried out.

Technically the goods remain the property of the shop until paid for, but that doesn't need to mean you can't take them away, and indeed eat them.

I don't know about "interest free", but yes, there's nothing wrong with that, and there would normally be reasonable time limits within which payment would have to be made. And of course they need to be satisfied you're not pulling a fast one, so suitable evidence of identity/address etc would need to be given. A loyalty card, perhaps? Loyalty works both ways. :-)

Doesn't apply. No intention to permanently deprive. You wouldn't just "make off", you would tell them where you live, how and when you'll pay, etc.

In message , Ronald Raygun writes

Doesnt apply. The intent in S3 relates to the payment, not the goods.

"knowing that payment on the spot for goods supplied or services done is required or expected of him, dishonestly makes off without having paid as required"

No. Scanning is simply looking up the price. Its no different from someone looking at a price tag, so the act of looking cant constitute a confirmation to accept since you might not like what you are looking at! It must be that its only at your next step, 4,when they say 'how would you like to pay' that they then "accept" your combined offer for all those hundreds of cans of tomatoes. So I would think, if they were being really bloody minded, they could even scan it all and then say 'sorry Mr R, dont like your ugly mug, so I decline to accept your offer, please leave our store forthwith".

Look at it from another POV, if the scanner gave a strange price, same as if a price tag was wrong, they dont have to accept it merely because they looked at it or because the automated system added it to a running total. Its no different to those internet buying cockups a few years back, Kodak etc, with stupidly low prices due toa mistake, where it became clear that accepting your order wasnt enough to force them to sell it to you, they had to have processed the payment in some way, eg usually via credit card*. Up until that point, its not legally binding, AIUI. In fact it cant be since they might not like your proposed method of payment ..."take my cow with 'pay tesco 45.60' written on it".

Thats fine if they agree to that, but they dont have to. And until they agree, which implies a contract between you, which implies you signing, or paying cash, or handing over an IOU etc, you havent bought them in any sense of the word.

Exactly. I was referring to a lack of intent by the shopper to permanently deprive the shop of the payment due.

Exactly. He wouldn't *dishonestly* make off. He'd be up front about it.