Chip and Pin - wot no number?

I was told today from a cashier in a petrol station that from December, if you don't know your PIN number for a C&P card, then the retailer must refuse
to sell you the goods, as he won't be able to accept a signature anymore. Don't know how true that is, but seeing I don't know any of my PIN numbers for my credit card and debit card, then there will be a lot of retailers who I shop with who will have great time restacking shelves with all my shopping - wonder how they will recover the fuel out of my petrol tank?
Anybody know if this is true, or was the cashier pulling my leg?
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If a petrol station wishes to go with c&p, then they should install "pay at pump" terminals where you tap in your pin *before* pumping the gas.
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Neaco wrote:

Some of my cards don't have chips, and they don't expire before December either.
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Neaco wrote:

Bollocks. I used chip and PIN for the first time the other day. If I hadn't known the PIN they would have defaulted to a signature.
I have never before bothered to remember my PIN for a credit card, as I have never wished to be ripped off in an ATM (unless abroad).
Brian
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BrianW wrote:

...

At present, retailers, AIUI, have discretion. This disappears as of Jan 1st 2005, when you *will* need the PIN for a Chip&PIN card.
There's another thread about security of such cards, or rather lack of it wrt the customer (it's all about saving the *banks* money; no prizes for who foots the bill (*)). It is possible to obtain a Chip&Signature card (aka PIN-suppressed), but expect hassle and denials.
(*) http://ex-parrot.com/~chris/wwwitter/20040711-fishy_and_chips.html is a good read.
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I was in a shop several weeks ago and was asked for my pin for the chip and pin. When I refused , they said it was company policy not to allow customers to use the equipment as they were not insured.
I refused.
Manager called
Big row
Me no doing any business there.
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"John"
wrote in message

SNIP>

My bank's instructions specifically say you do not disclose your PIN to anyone, and to cover the pad when typing it in. What shop was it?
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Snowman wrote: ...

I hope you told the bank! And yes, what shop was it please?
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Sounds like they work in the same business as the "Nigerian gentlemen" who are in the habit of sending me emails full of "wonderful news". ;-)
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Without a hint of irony, Mike Scott <usenet.9
announcing:

No. 1st Jan is when the liability shifts from the acquirer to the retailer if EMV terminals are not in place. That is, they have to be able to perform EMV transactions but they will still have the option to accept signature instead of PIN for a while.
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Alex wrote:

...

I stand corrected. Does anyone have a list of definitive dates please (liability shift; must have PIN terminal; must use PIN; etc...)??
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Without a hint of irony, Mike Scott
2004 by announcing:

That's it, up there ;-)
The only definitive date is that the liability will shift on 1st Jan 2005. If merchants don't have EMV terminals by that date, they will be liable for the fraud. If acquirers' systems don't support EMV transactions by that date, they'll be liable for the fraud.
There's no definitive date for turning PIN bypass off. This will presumably be a judgement call by PMO.
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23:03:10 GMT, Alex wrote in uk.finance :

Are you a civil servant?
The clue is in the unexplained acronyms.
Can you translate into English English please?
Thanks.
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uk.finance on 23 Nov 2004 by announcing:

No. I'm in the card payments industry.

EMV = Europay/Mastercard/VISA - what you know as "Chip & PIN" - their website is http://www.emvco.com
PMO is the UK EMV Programme Management Organisation - their website is http://www.chipandpin.co.uk
Also useful may be the glossary at the above site.
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"Neaco" wrote

They'll do exactly what they do with everyone else who fills their tank without having a valid method of payment - have you not seen the signs, "Make sure you have means to pay before dispensing fuel" ?
A C&P card *without* knowing the PIN will *not* be a "means to pay" !!
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Tim wrote:

(Which is???)

Interestingly, after filling the tank this morning, I told the cashier I had a chip&sig card that was faulty and there wasn't a PIN for it although it would ask for one. There was no problem today with signing. But he did assure me that as from Feb next year (I thought Jan 1st??) *all* cards would need a PIN: same number as for the hole-in-the-wall, he told me. He looked very blank when I told him the card didn't work in one of those. This is two weeks *after* I've written to the shop manager about chip&sig card problems. There're going to be major problems ahead if staff training doesn't improve!
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Without a hint of irony, Mike Scott <usenet.9
announcing:

1st Jan is the liability shift. The UK PMO (http://www.chipandpin.co.uk ) have recommended that all terminals are capable of PIN bypass for the time being. The official statement being:
"When the chip and PIN system is introduced, there will be a transition period. If the chip fails, fallback to magnetic stripe and signature may be permitted. If the cardholder forgets their PIN, fallback to signature may be permitted. These options will be discontinued as soon as it is practical to do so."
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Use your Reg number to pursue leagal action for shoplifting ie theft.

One of my cards does not have a chip - just a mag stripe. i expect a new one will arrive soon.
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rob. wrote:

It isn't theft if you intended to pay for it, but they refused your method of payment.
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Jonathan Bryce wrote:

Could get into an interesting discusion about issues such as legal tender etc. For example if you put 30 of petrol in and tried to pay with 60 50p coins you could be refused as it would not be "legal tender". The individual coins would be ok but the quantity not.
Perhaps not quite the same as with the C&P cards.
Now, if you filled up with petrol and they wouldn't accept your card unless you told them the PIN, as referred to in another sub-thread, that would be even more interesting.
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