Credit Cards/Chip and Pin/ATM withdrawls

That is a completely different thing, and is covered by the direct debit guarantee.

Your point?

Quite. And it will have to be *very* low before it matches the probability that a thief will be able to copy your signature well enough to satisfy the checkout clerk.

In message , PeteM writes

The 1974 act doesnt apply to her case.

I don't understand why you believe a sig card is more secure than a PIN card. Do you believe it is more difficult to forge a signature to the satisfaction of the checkout clerk than it is to discover your PIN?

And all *much* more difficult than simply learning how to approximate the signature on the back of your card. Plus they require that a

So to get ripped off, you have to (1) have your PIN discovered and (2) have your card stolen. Which means that you have to be careless/unlucky with your PIN and your card whilst in the presence of the *same* crook.

With a signature card, the crook can steal cards as the opportunity arises, spend 5 minutes practicing the signature, and go on a spending spree before the owner reports the card missing.

But you are no safer with a sig card. Less so, because there is no need to get your PIN first.

I do not understand the trust in signatures. Even if the thief does not have a mate working on a till (which many have), it is trivial to forge a signature well enough to satisfy a till clerk. Or to erase the signature on the sig strip of the card and substitute your own. My old sig card was so worn that the signature was totally illegible, but I very seldom got any queries when using it.

The PIN is nowhere near 100% secure, but it introduces an extra obsticle that is more difficult to overcome.

But is it less secure than a signature?

Was obvious to anyone who can read.

In message , Cynic writes

And 3) you have to have not noticed that the card has been nicked and have not reported its loss.

With a debit card though you are screwed.

If I can answer?

To use a stolen sig card, they typically have to go into a shop, where they may be caught, identified, video'ed etc, or give an address. They are highly unlikely to buy anything that in any way fits my spending profile or places I shop - so arguing it wasn't me is relatively easy. The thief can then only get a fraction of the value of the goods in cash and a little in cashback, if it is offered. They have to look as if the name is appropriate - a guy pretending his name is Ms Sue B.. is not going to get far. Neither are many recent arrivals to this country who don't look likely to be either a Sue or a B...

A PIN card, with PIN, gives access to thousands of pounds in cash at an unsupervised ATM that they can visit in crash helmet, scarf and sunglasses, time and time again.. It doesn't matter if they are a 23 stone bloke with a beard and a good suntan. Worse, to get thousands, they need to make sure that it isn't reported stolen.

A sig card makes *me* feel more secure than having to type a PIN in a public place would do.

At present, I will not use an ATM outside a bank branch, unless I really really have to - which hasn't happened yet.

It is possibly my overseas experiences that have warped me*.

Bitstring , from the wonderful person Cynic said

Signatures are 100% secure in ATMs because THEY DON'T WORK, which you appear to have trouble understanding. Joe criminal is much more interested in ripping off ATMs - 100% non-traceable cash, worth 100% of the face value, instead of dodgy goods which need fencing at maybe 10% of what they cost.

In message , Chris Street writes

And its relevance to Chip&Pin is?

I'm not quite sure what you are saying there, you have worded it rather ambiguously.

I *think* you are agreeing with me that if all he has is your card, then the chances of a thief being able to forge your signature are much higher than the chance of them being able to guess your code, but I'm not sure that is what you are saying.

So what was it?

I couldn't see anything in that which had any real relevance to what I had said in the preceding post.

Was it too hard for you?

A friend of mine had a card he hadn't signed - the check-out operator actually turned it over and "looked at" the signature before accepting it.