Credit Cards/Chip and Pin/ATM withdrawls

"TD" wrote

Then it's a shame you said something completely different instead!

"TD" wrote

If you are worried, don't use a debit card - use a credit card instead! This thread is about *credit* cards - check the subject line.

And this situation would be particularly annoying for anyone, like myself, who doesn't even _want_ the ability to withdraw money from an ATM with their account :-(

Mark

Yes.

And yes, I take your point that they will not be taking you to court to get you to pay up, but you would be taking *them* to court to get the money refunded.

Interesting article. I note the statement "Some customers may be studious and request disabling of cash withdrawal on certain cards".

This is the crux of this thread. I have asked for this and been refused. They say it can't be done :-(

BTW: This article descibes some technical details on how C&P can work. Can anyone point me to some more detailed descriptions?

Cheers, Mark.

"Mike Scott" wrote

Of course a PIN is "disclaimable". Whyever would you think otherwise?

They may just add additional charges and interest for non payment. I'm sure your credit rating would suffer whatever the outcome.

Mark.

"Mark" wrote

Which they would also have to take you to court, and win, to get.

"Mark" wrote

If they get awkward with the CRA's, then add a NOC to each.

Any prospective credit provider worth its salt would look at the 20-30 perfect credit a/c's, read the NOC about the one rogue a/c, and accept the reasons...

I have observed how fragile credit ratings can be. A friend of mine was refused a loan for a car. It turns out that this was because someone who used to live at the same address (rented flat) had not paid a bill several years before. The matter was eventually resolved but my friend lost out on that purchase.

What's a "NOC"?

Mark

The links on this page may be of use:

Yes - I was using the word "low" on the figure of "X" as in, "the chance of getting the right code is 1 chance in X"

Badly wordd on my part.

If the crook uses the card as much as possible and then discards it within an hour or two of stealing it, it is unlikely that it would have been flagged as stolen within that time. If the theft was surruptitious, most people will waste time investigating the possiblity that they left their card at the last place it was used, asking lost property counters in case they dropped it etc., and then defer making the call until they are in their car or back home. I don't know how long it takes for a CC company to flag the card as stolen after getting a report, but I don't think it is instantaneous. In one case I know of (several years ago), a stolen card was used successfully a week after it had been reported stolen (and that was a burglary and so there was not doubt about the theft).

I disagree that cash thefts can be larger. Supermarkets will give "cash back" of up to £50, and there is no limit to the number of times you can do this except the daily limit on the card itself. In fact, IIUC, you can get more "cash back" in a day than you can withdraw from an ATM in a day, because the limit is the total card limit rather than the ATM limit (which IIUC is lower).

I don't know whether you are correct to say that it is easier to get refunded from a fraudulent signature transaction than a fraudulent PIN transaction, but others have indicated that there should not be a lot of difference in the level of difficulty.

Read what I wrote.

What particular provisions of the act are you referring to?

But a sig. card is as likely to be usable at an ATM, so you have almost the same probability of the crook using it at an ATM as a C&P card - plus the higher probability that a sig card will be used in a shop. The only thing that is the extra risk at an ATM with C&P is that due to entering your PIN in more places than you would with a sig card, shoulder-surfing is more likely.

But in fact it is *trivial* to prevent shoulder-surfing if you take a modicum of care, and so the increased risk to you as a careful person is negligable.

IIUC you are wrong about the amount of cash the crook can get as well. AFAIK my card has an ATM limit on the amount of cash I can draw per day (I think it's £400), but there is no such limit on my shopping spend, where I have bought over £1000 of goods in one go without a raised eyebrow. To get cash, I can simply get it £50 a time at a supermarket checkout - in fact the checkout clerk has been accomodating enough to split my purchases into several smaller transactions in order to give me the shop's £50 maximum cashback for each transaction. The card company doesn't know how much of the total is cashback and how much is beers.

Crooks are not that bothered about the probability of the card being disabled when they use it at a till. They can easily use a disguise that will prevent recognition from a CCTV recording, and are alert to indications that the card company has refused the transaction and issued a "detain customer" instruction - and they simply leg it. Remember that nobody in the shop is entitled to actually detain a customer for a refused card unless they are a policeman. Not that it would be physically feasible to do so at quite a few small jewelers shops and the like.

So a criminal does not need the PIN no. of a C&P card. He/she can just fry the chip and forge the sig in the shop as before?

M.

Which would get you off the hook with a PIN card as well. Sure, all banks will *try* to wriggle out of it, but so long as you persevere, you'll not take the fall. A sig transaction *may* require less hoops (if the crook's sig is totally different), but the end result is the same.

Why do you find it difficult to shield the entry pad whilst you key in your PIN?

Many organisations break the rules. It can take a lot of time and hassle to sort out. I once had a dispute with a building society over a mortgage. I won in the end, but it took six years (on and off). As it was only over a (relatively) small amount of money many people would not bother. That's how these people get away with it! The more people that cave in the more it reinforces their policy.

How many times have you been into a shop to request a refund on a faulty item to be told something like "We don't give refunds if you have used the item"? The shop assistant often appears to believe it too!

Mark