Chip & PIN - Bin the PIN.

When I applied for my credit card a box was available asking if I wanted a PIN with my card which would enable me to draw money at cash machines. I left the box unticked. PINS are now being issued automaticaly whither you asked for one or not.

Other than obtaining 'expensive' cash from an ATM I wonder if anyone can give me one good reason for having a PIN with my credit card.

Here are some of the reasons why I am BINNING the PIN.

  1. If your a victim of fraud with a PIN before you report the card lost or stolen then you have to prove you weren't negligent with your PIN. You can deny a signature, but it's a lot more difficlut to deny not being negligent with your PIN.
  2. Issuing PINs with Credit Cards is easy access to cash for the weak willed.
  3. UK Chipped cards can still be cloned an used overseas within hours. (This is because they are retaining the magstrip and you can use a cloned card with PIN at overseas ATMs).
  4. How do you catch an ID thief thats obtained a genuine card and PIN? The worst that can happen to them is that their card is withheld at an ATM. An idication and warning to them that they've been rumbled.
  5. PIN Security or lack of. At least one card company (SAGA) suggests that you change all your cards to the same PIN! Look at the design of floating PIN Pads (Chip & PIN Video). It is suggested you enter your PIN with one hand and cover the pad with the other. Unfortunately you need a third hand.
  6. PIN Confidence, Crooks are acquiring PINs through shoulder surfing, bogus calls, phishing on the internet and using micro cameras. Very difficult to prove your not negligent with your PIN.
  7. Report on the Northampton Trial page 6, 'A PIN proves that the cardholder is the genuine owner.'
  8. Safeway customers love it. I checked in my local Safeways, this was the reply from customer service - don't' worry if you've forgotten your PIN, you will be timed out and all you do is sign per usual. Lots of customers are timed out. By the time they dig their pin from out of their handbag they end up signing.

If your sent a PIN phone your card company and ask them to disable the PIN. (Capitol One confirmed today that they can put a block on a PIN on the cardholders instructions, and the cardholder can continue to sign). Send your PIN back un-opened to your card issuer, they will soon get the message.

James

Reply to
James
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"James" wrote

Ermm - so that you can pay at all retailers from next year? ;-)

"James" wrote

What are you going to do when retailers start to refuse signatures (after the "introduction" period) and begin to only accept PIN authorisation?

"James" wrote

What's the third hand for??

"James" wrote

Why should I?

Reply to
Tim

Without a hint of irony, snipped-for-privacy@tiscali.co.uk (James) astounded uk.finance on 14 Feb 2004 by announcing:

And as the merchants over time decide not to allow PIN bypass, and CVM lists are modified to remove signature checking, you're left with less and less outlets in which to use your card.

Reply to
Alex

Indeed, shoulder surfing (and other ways of obtaining PINs) may possibly be a big issue in the future, I'm not sure what happened in France as they have had PINs for years, did it happen there? But its certainly going to be more difficult to prove you didnt misuse your PIN, or fraudulently deny the transaction took place, if soemone does manage to get hold of your card and PIN.

Obviously, the security isnt for us, its for the card companies.

Reply to
Tumbleweed

"Tumbleweed" wrote

Shouldn't it be the other way around? - the card company should need to prove that you *did* act negligently, rather than *you* proving that you didn't!

Reply to
Tim

So you mean smaller and smaller outlets, or fewer and fewer?

squawk!

Reply to
tasty chicken

A photo AND PIN on the card will do better than either measure alone.

In countries where there is just a PIN, the most disturbing thing is people are robbed of their card and assulted/intimidated to reveal their PIN. Adding the photo raises the bar.

squawk!

Reply to
tasty chicken

Without a hint of irony, tasty chicken astounded uk.finance on 14 Feb 2004 by announcing:

Yes.

Reply to
Alex

Thats an idea, maybe they could have half the card with a photo instead of the "novel" designs you get - the last lot of photo cards I saw were awful little things like you get on driving licences.

Reply to
Chris

I have a VISA card with my signature, a PIN and my photo.

It's not the best photo of me, but it's a photo :-)

squawk!

Reply to
tasty chicken

how does the mugger know the victim has just given them the correct PIN ?

Reply to
NorwichLad

You program the ATM to a. detect the stolen card and send a high priority message to bank staff who ask the cops to attend

b. then take a long time to respond

c. then respond with a message that the central computer has problems / do you want to try again

d. repeat b and c indefinitely and hopefully meanwhile enough time for the cops to collect the guy by the ATM.

Unfortunately after a while the crims would catch on and disappear faster. They'd probably catch some for a while tho

David. 1keytools.

Software author. (please edit my email addr. to prove you're not a dumb 'bot) Web Log Analyzer by Search Term

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Reply to
1keytools david

A PIN with a credit card should be personal choice. Chips will stop counterfeit which accounted fo more than half of the £200 million lost to fraud in shops last year. The cost of Chip and PIN an estimated £1.1 billion, and we are all paying indirectly.

I can't see what you suggest happening, not All countries are signed up as yet to Chip and PIN, The USA I am led to believe are not going down this road. Can you see UK shops displaying the various card logs turning away overseas cardholders because they sign? If Chip and PIN had to become the universal 'norm'it would be a long, long time away.

Tesco filling stations operate pay at the pumps. You don't have to sign anything, or enter a PIN and your card isn't checked. Unless cards have been reported lost and a block put on, or buying petrol is an unusual spending pattern then Tesco are taking the hit for fraud. You can drive in, fill-up use a stolen or cloned card and drive away unchallenged. Some may say this is irresponsible retailing - me for one. The Association of Payment Clearing Services, responsible for co-ordinating the fight against card fraud can do nothing about this. It is a matter for Tesco. Card issuers likewise. What incentive is there for retailers selling low value goods who own their own terminals to go to the expense of updating to Chip & PIN hardware?

Chip and PIN does protect the banks and retailers, unfortunately it does nothing to protect victims of PIN card fraud. Just as a matter of interest the Canadian Banks describe in their terms and conditions what is considered being negligent with a PIN. We have nothing.

If your a victim of fraud in a shop. You can always disown a signature but you'll find it a lot harder to disown a PIN.

BIN THE PIN. James.

Reply to
James

Actually I would have though that is the ideal situation for chip and pin and wouldn't be surprised if tesco are already doing it, particularly as they haven't yet finished rolling out chip readers in store (I assume that the pin pads just plug in easily as I haven't seen those yet in any of the branches which have chip readers and will be plugged in (by local staff?) when they make the decision to go live)

Reply to
Chris

Without a hint of irony, "Chris" astounded uk.finance on 16 Feb 2004 by announcing:

The main incentive for Tesco not to upgrade yet is that they estimate the cost of the fraud will be less than the cost of the upgrade. Once this equation balances or reverses, the PINpads will probably appear overnight.

Reply to
Alex

Sure, but only if *you* wear the extra risk - I object to you expecting to share the extra risk with me.

The banks are in a better position than you or I with regard to the actual figures.

Well, many countries have had the system since the mid-to-late 80s, so they won't need to.

Yes, and I have seen this happen. If the banks make it a requirement, they will either face merchant revolt or merchants will just get on with it.

This is just your typical British approach: it will take a long time so forget it. No, I say if it is worth doing, even if it will take a while, better start sooner than later.

Have you noticed the little cameras pointing at you as you pay at the pump?

Hogwash. See above. The last thing a crook wants is their face on the box.

It's about evolution of technologies in the market. Maybe the overall deal will be better for them?

Are these interests not aligned?

It differs from bank to bank, but in the absence of explicit reference to negligence, there is a legal process for establishing what is reasonable or not.

Do you have any evidence that you will be required to??

Squawk!

Reply to
tasty chicken

They get a friend to "look after" the victim.

Obviously, this can happen anywhere where a PIN allows cash withdrawls.

Squawk!

Reply to
tasty chicken

Or just take a photo of the person using the ATM. Sure your criminal would soon figure out how to use a balaclava or similar, but it's a bit obvious in public places (most ATMs are in high-circulation locations).

Squawk!

Reply to
tasty chicken

... but there are many different systems aren't there? E.g. the French system isn't compatible with the one we're going to get.

Much good they'll do when I buy petrol on my motorbike.

See above! :-)

Reply to
usenet

Wear a crash helmet, very easy and quite common enough not to raise any suspicions.

Reply to
usenet

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