What happens if you chip stops working (chip and pin), can you still buy goods without a PIN? If so, what is to stop a criminal frying a chip by applying excessive voltage on the connections (or microwaving it?) to put it out of action? Will the criminal they be able to buy with a signature?
The card should report an error message 'contact your bank'. It might still work in places where the magnetic strip is used to process a transaction eg cash machines.
Only if the card is used in a CHIP environment. If used at an ATM it is more than likely that the card (fall back to magstrip) can still be used with PIN to withdraw cash.
In a shop who uses magstrip verification the the card can still be used with a signature.
card to withdraw cash - Bin your PIN - No disputed transactions to worry about and you probably wont be targettted for your 'PIN' by fraudsters.
but at that point its up to the shop whether to go ahead or not ..they wont be covered if its a fraudulent transaction.
Bin your PIN?
BIN your PIN! - Absolutlely - Get yourself a Chip & Signature card instead.
Procedure (for the benefit of others). Chipped card is entered into Chip Reader (PIN pad).
Chip is read. (At this point Chip & PIN cardholders enter their PIN - but).
A transaction slip is produced for the Cardhodler to Sign (as is safer, as reduces cardholder liability).
I've been using Chip & Signature cards now from the outset (after 15 Feb), with no problems.
wrote
You keep making statements like the one in brackets above, but don't seem to have any proof whatsoever that they are true. Are you deliberately trying to mislead people?
Bitstring , from the wonderful person Tim said
It's clearly easier to prove you didn't produce a particular signature than it is to prove the PIN number entered wasn't entered by you, or by someone you had revealed it to.
Your liability in either case (if found guilty, or innocent) is the same, however your chances of proving 'it wasn't me' are much better with a signature. Even proving you were elsewhere will do (even the tackiest banks have not yet postulated the concept of 'passing on your signature for someone else to use').
"GSV Three Minds in a Can" wrote
It's also clearly easier to prove that 2+2=4, than it is to prove that Pi is a little over 3.1 -- but neither this nor your point are actually relevant. The cardholder's liability is the same whether you have Sig or PIN, the law & Banking Code have not changed there.
"GSV Three Minds in a Can" wrote
Glad you agree!
"GSV Three Minds in a Can" wrote
*You* don't have to prove anything!"GSV Three Minds in a Can" wrote
Which you could do just as easily if the fraudster used a PIN!
"GSV Three Minds in a Can" wrote
And also the courts have *not* agreed that "use of a PIN by a fraudster proves the cardholder acted fraudulently or without reasonable care."
go on then.....
Absolutley true, but what is also absolutely true is that the FOS has been inundated with cases of PIN based fraud, where victims are being treated as criminals.
Why be held responsible for something that you need not have - a PIN?
It's your choice PIN or Sign
wrote
Have they found against any of the cardholders yet?
wrote
Don't be silly. They're not being locked up are they?
wrote
Because its uses far outway it's problems?
wrote
Exactly - and using a PIN is so much more convenient!
Doesn't matter, the cardholders have already paid significant penalties, you may say it makes a difference if you pay 1000 in being liable, or 1000 in lost time fighting the case, but I don't.
Not all criminals are locked up.
Jim.
I think you're right. You can "measure" Pi with a big bit of paper, some string and a ruler. Proving 2+2=4 is a little harder, requires a deep knowledge of maths and set theory!
There's some interesting stuff here
I get that deja vu feeling......
Yes, that statement is true. But /you/ are the only one supposed to know your PIN -- so you are open to accusations of carelessness or deliberate divulging of it, either of which would make you liable. That is not true of a signature.
From a purely technical pov, the liability issues are the same - but there are extra avenues open to the banks to make life difficult for the punter.
Which won't stop the banks being difficult, and needing extra effort to make them back down.
But this has been regularly discussed lately; no agreement reached; and, as they say, the music goes around and around.....
"Jeremy Sanders" wrote
Would you need a calculator with that, too?
"Jeremy Sanders" wrote
Nah, you just need to be able to count to 'four'...
Place 'two' stones on the ground next to each other. Now place 'two' more next to them. Now count the stones ... how many are there? 'Four'? Yippee!
You see, it's all down to what your
*definition* of "two" and "four" are...
Your definition of two is that it is 'two stones'?
(note my smiley earlier) I think most maths people would claim "two" and "four" can exist without stones, and just require a small set of axioms. Anyway, can you prove -2+2 = 0 with stones?
Jeremy
"Inundated"? You have stats?
I can tell you that from early next month any credit card or debit card that is chip and pin enabled will be refused at ATM's if the machine cannot read the chip. This will not of course apply to cashpoint cards only.
How does it know if the card is C&P enabled?
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