Several Jobs PAYE Tax Problem Again

Spell checker getting over eager.

You will find errors and horror stories for any organisation for anybody personally.

As for the stories on the TV program, anybody with intelligence would realise that nobody can make anybody bankrupt without contacting them first, but that is what the BBC reporter tried to suggest.....

So a pinch of salt.

Also, Peters stories tend to be ones that appeared months ago on Accounting web, or problems recently reported in the accountants update.

Have you a link to an example?

I showed an example from the tax editor of accounting web which I notice you didn't comment on.

Being reported doesn't mean it's gone away. It means it is most likely to mean it happened!

This is from today's accounting web:

"According to an HMRC whistleblower, HMRC staff routinely bin letters and ignore tax errors in order to meet performance targets. The comments are reported as made in the ITV Tonight programme; The general press picked up the comments and reported them widely on Monday 6 April ahead of the show's airing. In Taking On the Taxman (which was transmitted on ITV at 8pm on Monday

6 April), the anonymous staff member said: "Staff have actually been told that when someone rings in with a tax inquiry and you spot a mistake on a person's record, you have to ignore it unless they have actually asked you to look at the mistake. It's all about the government target of answering so many calls in a day".

AccountingWEB.co.uk members will be all too aware that much trumpeted "tax revelations" turn out to be a non story when viewed with professional eyes, and that comment could be levied at this programme. While the study could have made some interesting points we were left without enough detail to draw any useful conclusions. Our feature "Is HMRC really failing us?" discusses the transmission in more detail."

The above shows that accountants don't take stories at face value. I agree that it is unlikely that somebody would be made bankrupt without many warnings.

In response to the above an accountant posted:

"And now, for their latest trick, they have lost all of our PAYE clients from the web service, just after a two day shut down at what is a critical time of year. We have now been waiting 20 minutes for the laughably called help line to answer the phone. This is on top of it having been impossible to file CIS returns all week. This is inconvenient (to put it mildly).

Happy Easter, everybody."

"Tony Kelly, 07 April 2009 @ 12:25 PM agree with the first comment There are many issues with the way HMRC treats its "customers". If I treated my customers in this way, I would soon be out of business. The rules are set up by the government and implemented by HMRC. Your MP needs a lot of money to cover his expenses, particularly when you have one, two, three or more properties to run. Don't forget that MPs deserve a fairly decent pension scheme as well. You have to have fairly (!) robust methods of tax collection to pay for that lot. The sad fact of the matter is that the cases seen in the television programme were probably the tip of the iceberg."

"EL, 07 April 2009 @ 17:03 PM Two examples today I have had two examples today alone of inadequacy by HMRC and am certainly not one of Dave's "satisfied customers":

1. Two letters sent in February on the same issue for a client have mysteriously "never arrived". It is a fairly technical issue that we are pursuing and I can't help feeling the letters went in the "too difficult" pile and were shredded.

Update - 8/4/09 - another letter for another client apparently "lost in the post" this morning.

1. I rang HMRC today to ask why a 2007/08 P35 refund was still outstanding. The chap actually told me that they were all overworked and overstretched and I was expecting far too much. If we don't chase these things, they are not going to happen.

It may be true, but it is a shocking admission for the staff to make to their "customers" nonetheless(and I too really hate that word - even if they treated us as a proper business should, we can never be customers whilst we have no choice in the matter). They are far too free with our client's time and money, pushing far too much onto the agent's plate (chasing, resending letters, generally sorting out their incompetence etc etc)

So last night's programme had no surprises for me."

"Mike Whittaker, 08 April 2009 @ 10:28 AM "Computer Error" I refer you again to my Any Answers about receiving a penalty for SATR "non-submission" while being in possession of the submission Receipt printout (but not the email). Such things should not merely "get corrected" manually (as I hope the above will) - the process that allowed it to get through needs review and correction too.

And perhaps it is with the help of robust processes and procedures that these problems can be avoided - but I come from an Engineering background where these are used to embody and implement best practice, not from a Civil Service one where they are used to add layers of bureaucracy !!"

"Vaughan Blake, 08 April 2009 @ 14:46 PM But Wagon Wheels Were Much Bigger Back Then Having been in and around tax since the late seventies I honestly don't think that overall tax administration has become any worse. I have not forgotten:

Lost accounts, returns, appeals, correspondence and computations - not new.

Husbands being investigated due to their wife not telling them about a bit of gross paid bank interest.

Districts having three month post backlogs.

Lost HMIT files, "sorry the file is not in its hanger, can you call back"

HMIT listing appeals for commissioners when they held the necessary details.

Assessments being repeatedly amended incorrectly.

The completely haphazard issue of Sch E assessments and the equally haphazard collection of any tax thereon.

The chaos surrounding many many tax district reorganisations.

The horrors of trying to get through via telephone to any of the B'ham tax districts. (Hooray for the agents priority/dedicated lines)

OK ,OK, I'll stop before it gets like that Monty Python sketch!

It is important to remember that as agents we see a relatively small percentage of taxpayers. By implication these people have the most complex tax affairs.

If you want a real cringe sometime, take a friendly tax inspector on one side and ask him to tell you about the dumb things he has seen accountants do. I have and its not pretty.

Whilst I don't think things are getting any worse, equally they are not getting any better, and that's the pity!"

"Karen Whitehead, 09 April 2009 @ 10:22 AM Things getting worse Rebecca I agree with your comments regarding the Tonight program. It should have focused on the day to day problems that we all experience. I have been in accounts for 22 years and I am sorry but I have never had so many problems with the Revenue as I have in the last

3 or 4 years. Things are getting worse and it is now at the point where generally I expect them to get it wrong.

When you contact them it is rare to get a call handler that is not rude and aggressive. If you get a nice one it is pointless taking their name because you will never get the same one again.

If you ring the priority line and need to speak to a member of the technical team they will rarely call you back as promised.

My fear is that if more HMRC employees are made redundant and further offices closed the situation will deteriorate even further."

Most accountants didn't think the Tonight programme was fair about the big stories. What they do think is that the day to day dealings with HMRC are a nightmare for taxpayer agents. Of course, explaining that letters routinely get lost or are not answered for three months doesn't make good TV so they come up with a shock horror story that doesn't hold true.

Alan, all these stories are recent.

Of course. Sometimes the organisation will not accept fault. Sometimes they just fob you off. Sometimes they just bugger up the complaint itself. HMRC is not the only incompetent, arrogant organisation in the world.

It varies. Sometimes it happens that you complain by phone and they say, "sorry we can't deal with this sort of complaint by phone, would you put it in writing" and so I do. Nothing wrong with that, in fact I often do it myself to people who complain to me,

The oddness of the HMRC complaints "team" as described earlier was that they "never" deal by phone. The phone is a useful tool for some purposes.

Sometimes when you complain in writing when you eventually get a reply the response gives you the impression they haven't read the letter and allocated it to one of the standard response templates.

Indeed I did read it, and I note that unlike you, he believed the stories in the program to be less than true and did not accuse the whole department of being incompetent.

But I doubt you read that, you are looking for a reason to insult and complain.

Actually thats not true. The deoartment is run from a specified budget and this includeds the wages bill. So payments are made to HMRC by HMRC in respect of the tax and NIC deducted or calculated on the salaries paid. Th cost of the pension contribution to HMRC is the elemnt of employers contributions the same as any other employer in the private sector.

You did read it? "he" when Nichola is a woman? Earlier I quoted Nichola's views of HMRC and they were considerably less than complimentary but you decided to ignore that. Where did I say that everything was accurate? When have I said the whole department is incompetent?

I read all of it. You say I am looking for a reason to insult and complain but what about all all the accountants I quoted? Did I make all that up? Do you still stand by your statement regarding what other accountants think? Where is your evidence that other accountants are happy with HMRC?

I can provide plenty of evidence that accountants are not happy with HMRC. I don't think it will change your stance. You will still disagree with me. But we both know it has nothing to do with reality.

And where do the pension contributions ultimately come from? The taxpayer.