'The' rock and a 'the' hard place

Short story
Bought a PVR (150) from TribalUK using a Co-op Debit card
6 months later closed the Co-op account (moved to First Direct) - 3 months later PVR packed up & i returned it
= TribalUK claim they refunded Co-op account - Coop claim the account is closed and they haven't had it - i've spent well over 2K in time alone trying to persue it with both parties and basically neither of them are interested
With more people switching banks nowadays than ever before - this must be happening to the tune of billions & until there are special laws in place it's obviously not in the interest of either to sort it out
I've thought about taking them to small claims but who do i sue? i think TribalUK are legally bound, by the fact that they have to refund 'me' (because 'i' paid them), and by any definition of the word 'refund' i dont got the money back
A/ Who would you go after?
B/ Think twice before you transfer balance on your credit card - you could be voiding any guarantees you have
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Short story
Bought a PVR (150) from TribalUK using a Co-op Debit card
6 months later closed the Co-op account (moved to First Direct) - 3 months later PVR packed up & i returned it
= TribalUK claim they refunded Co-op account - Coop claim the account is closed and they haven't had it - i've spent well over 2K in time alone trying to persue it with both parties and basically neither of them are interested
With more people switching banks nowadays than ever before - this must be happening to the tune of billions & until there are special laws in place it's obviously not in the interest of either to sort it out
I've thought about taking them to small claims but who do i sue? i think TribalUK are legally bound, by the fact that they have to refund 'me' (because 'i' paid them), and by any definition of the word 'refund' i dont got the money back
A/ Who would you go after?
B/ Think twice before you transfer balance on your credit card - you could be voiding any guarantees you have
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P.S. Is there any finacial ombudsman that i could appeal to?
| Short story | | Bought a PVR (150) from TribalUK using a Co-op Debit card | | 6 months later closed the Co-op account (moved to First Direct) - 3 months | later PVR packed up & i returned it | | = TribalUK claim they refunded Co-op account - Coop claim the account is | closed and they haven't had it - i've spent well over 2K in time alone | trying to persue it with both parties and basically neither of them are | interested | | With more people switching banks nowadays than ever before - this must be | happening to the tune of billions & until there are special laws in place | it's obviously not in the interest of either to sort it out | | I've thought about taking them to small claims but who do i sue? i think | TribalUK are legally bound, by the fact that they have to refund 'me' | (because 'i' paid them), and by any definition of the word 'refund' i dont | got the money back | | A/ Who would you go after? | | B/ Think twice before you transfer balance on your credit card - you could | be voiding any guarantees you have | | | |
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At 20:41:33 on 15/12/2006, JethroUK© delighted uk.finance by announcing:

TribalUK first of all. They should have proof that they refunded the money.

No you couldn't. The method of paying your credit card balance is irrelevant.
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| > B/ Think twice before you transfer balance on your credit card - you | > could be voiding any guarantees you have | | No you couldn't. The method of paying your credit card balance is | irrelevant.
it's not the method of paying that's affected - it's the card you 'buy' with that is - if (like me) you buy something with Card A - transfer the balance to Card B and close Card A - item goes pop and they refund Card A (which no longer exists) - that's exactly the situation i'm in
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At 14:15:06 on 22/12/2006, JethroUK© delighted uk.finance by announcing:

Which is nothing to do with 'voiding any guarantees you have'
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| > | > | > | > B/ Think twice before you transfer balance on your credit card - | > you | > could be voiding any guarantees you have | > > | > > No you couldn't. The method of paying your credit card balance is | > > irrelevant. | > | > it's not the method of paying that's affected - it's the card you | > 'buy' with that is - if (like me) you buy something with Card A - | > transfer the balance to Card B and close Card A - item goes pop and | > they refund Card A (which no longer exists) - that's exactly the | > situation i'm in | | Which is nothing to do with 'voiding any guarantees you have'
OK - should've read:
Think twice before you transfer balance on your credit card - if you buy something with Card A - transfer the balance to Card B and close Card A - return the item due to a fault - they refund Card A (which no longer exists) - You've lost you money into the ether they call 'electronic banking', never to be seen by you again - albeit the banks will have plenty of bubbly at the share-holders meeting
That'll teach me to be more pedantic in future so nothing is left open to interpretation
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At 19:51:25 on 23/12/2006, JethroUK© delighted uk.finance by announcing:

It's still incorrect though. Either the money has been credited to the account which is cancelled rather than closed, or the payment will be returned to the payer.
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"JethroUK" wrote

Why? Any possible issue has absolutely nothing to do with **transferring the balance**.
It is *only* to do with *closing* the card...
"JethroUK" wrote

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On Fri, 15 Dec 2006 20:40:09 GMT, JethroUK© put finger to keyboard and typed:

If you paid by card, then TribalUK are obliged to refund to the account that the payment was made from. That's the law; it's part of the anti-laundering regulations and they could be in serious trouble if they gave you a refund in any other way. So you have to pursue it with the Co-op in order to get your money. However, TribalUK will be able to get the Co-op's transaction acceptance code from their bank or card handler. If TribalUK have got the code from their bank or card handler to show that the money has left their account and returned to the card that made the payment, then that entirely fulfills their responsibilities in law. But if you ask them, they should be willing to let you have that information so that you can in turn quote it at the Co-op when you chase it up with them. The Co-op owes you the money, if they have in fact received it from TribalUK.

This is a genuine problem if you pay for something by card and then close the account - it can cause major problems if the vendor needs to make any kind of refund. The only other legal option the vendor has is to offer you a replacement item instead. For practical reasons such as this, it's often wise not to fully close an account straight away if you switch away from it - just leave it dormant for a while and then close it nce you're certain that it no longer has any relevance to potentially active transactions.
Mark
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"Mark Goodge" wrote

Are you sure? When did that become law? For instance, last spring I had a refund of car insurance which had been paid on a 'Webcard'. As you cannot refund to Webcards, the insurer simply asked me for the card details of *any* other card for the refund to go to (and it went through with no problems).
"Mark Goodge" wrote

Are you sure? Just a couple of weeks ago, I had a refund from my telecomms provider of advance charges which had been taken by direct debit - they asked me for details of *whatever* bank account I wanted the refund to go to!
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On Sat, 16 Dec 2006 12:44:45 -0000, Tim put finger to keyboard and typed:

Yes, I'm sure. I don't know exactly when it became law, but a quick Google throws up plenty of websites giving the same information. Here's a recent one on The Guardian's website:
http://money.guardian.co.uk/experts/consumer/story/0,,1969670,00.html

A webcard isn't a credit card, so there's no problem there. The rules apply specifically to credit cards.

Again, that's not a problem because it isn't a credit card. The only thing you can't normally do is get a cash refund on anything that was paid for by an electronic transaction - refunds have to be applied by the same route as the payment, but the definition of "same" varies according to the payment method. Credit cards are the most strictly controlled, because they're most at risk from being used fraudulently.
Mark
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"Mark Goodge" wrote

Yes it is! It is a "one-use" *credit* card...
"Mark Goodge" wrote

Then they would apply to Webcards on a **credit card** account, wouldn't they?
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On Sat, 16 Dec 2006 17:16:57 -0000, Tim put finger to keyboard and typed:

There are procedures in place for cards which cannot be refunded to. But these don't apply to the OP.
Mark
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"Mark Goodge" wrote

That article can't make it's mind up - "I was offered an Argos gift card instead" and then "refunds on goods bought by credit card must be recredited to that same credit card"!!
So which is it? Is an Argos gift card allowed (which obviously *isn't* the "same credit card"), or not?
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On Sat, 16 Dec 2006 17:35:43 -0000, Tim put finger to keyboard and typed:

A gift voucher isn't a refund, it's an exchange.
Mark
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"Mark Goodge" wrote

Don't be silly. A cash refund is *also* "an exchange"! Bank notes ("cash") are just "vouchers" backed by the BoE.
A gift voucher is simply something that can be used to purchase something else. Just like cash. The only difference between a gift voucher and cash is the places that will accept it (sterling cash is usually accepted in most places in UK, but not so much abroad; an Argos gift voucher is accepted in all Argos stores, but usually nowhere else).
Why would Argos vouchers be allowed, but Bank of England vouchers ("cash") not? Where do you draw the line?
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On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 10:30:01 -0000, Tim put finger to keyboard and typed:

No, it isn't. A gift voucher is a product of the store. The fact that it is intended to be used to further exchange for other products of the store doesn't make it cash.
If a gift voucher (or credit note) was equivalent to cash, then the store could offer one instead of a monetary refund and insist that you have to accept it as a refund if you return an item. But both the DSR and SOGA specifically forbid that - a refund is only a refund if made in actual currency, either cash or electronic. But that works both ways - the fact that a gift voucher can't be considered a refund under the DSR and SOGA also means that it doesn't count as a refund under the money laundering regulations.

Because cash is money and gift vouchers aren't. So a gift voucher is an exchange, not a refund - it's swapping one form of goods for another. At the end of the process, if you take gift vouchers you'll still end up with goods from Argos, not any other shop. If you get a monetary refund, you can spend it anywhere.

The line is drawn at what is legally defined as money. That's legal tender, in physical tokens (ie, coins and banknotes), or electronic transfer of fully convertible funds (such as a card payment).
Mark
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I wonder what happens with all these 'one shot' or otherwise limited use web cards in such circumstances?
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"Tumbleweed" wrote

See my other posts - when it happened to me, they simply asked me for **any other** credit card details for the refund to go to!!
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