Chip and Pin - More secure for who?

Sadly, that is generally the nature of crime - why prey on the strong? That is no different to today.

OK Jane - What solution can YOU come up with - it is easy to slag off C&P - and we all know it is not perfect - but it is certainly better than sig strips, cards being cloned, etc etc?!

They can report the crime to the police, have it duly investigated (*BWG*) and get a corresponding crime no. The no. of old persons generally walking around at night or early morning around unattended ATMs with nobody around is low, I think you will find. Confirmation between CC fraud dept and police of ref no. will confirm criminal activity and refund costs pending investigation and prosecution accordingly. Exactly same system as takes place now. what is your point?

So which is it that concerns you - pickpocketing or mugging? What if you were pickpocketed today? When would you notice and how secure *would* you feel safe in the knowledge that your cards were C&P enabled, and hence opportunistic crime would be most likely ineffective against you?

C&P is designed to stop card cloning being an effective crime - it does not eliminate all financial crime associated with cards! Pickpockets will always be around - there will always be thieves. A dedicated thief, determined to steal from an individual, will often succeed, no matter what the individual or associated bank does - there is no defence (generally) to a knife. Stop obfuscating the issue.

Why would the banks spend something in the region of 80 million EACH to develop, introduce and support a new system to allow people to draw money via ATM on their credit cards, when they can do so already? Grow up, Jane! The reason the banks are introducing C&P is because they are sick of losing the circa 420 million a year (according to APACS) to the fraudsters. With regard to 'making so much from credit cards' - Barclaycard made 689 million (pretax) in 2003 - given that 1 in 5 cards is a Barclaycard - they are losing circa 80 million a year alone due to card fraud - can you blame them for wanting to eliminate 11.6% of their profit stream loss?! (And that excluded the cost of investigation and taxation!) The smaller operators have an even greater benefit/cost ration to be garnered by C&P, hence the capital investment.

You also miss a big point - consider WHO offers credit cards - Barclays, RBS, HBOS, LLoyds, HSBC as well as AMEX, Cap One, MBNA etc. When these companies make profit who gets the money?............errm that would be the shareholders then, right? Who are major corporate shareholders in all the above?...........errm that would be the pension companies and fund managers, right? So - the profits garnered by big financial corps end up going where exactly? - - - oh yeah - ultimately into your pocket.

And hence you!

So you want your purchase of a TV at Dixons to be refused, do you? How does C&P DISADVANTAGE you? Really?

Aaaah - the truth comes out!

So stop whinging.

MC

Umpteen news reports in my daily newspapers, the Glasgow Herald and the Evening Times. I have neither the time nor the inclination to start researching them all, you can if you wish. No it is certainly not an urban myth.

Well all current cards are chip+pin+mag-strip anyway, so all you need to do is clone the magstripe version and pin and use it in machines that haven't yet been upgraded - like most of the cash-machines in the UK...

Jim.

I may have this wrong, but are not all the Siemens-Nixdorf machines programmed to read the chip first, and the stripe second? When Chip read on the card shows a non C&P card it reverts to stripe.....It certainly seems that a lot of machines in south Hants are Siemens-Nixdorf and hence C&P would benefit users of such machines. I am sure other ATMs will catch up....

MC

Only if the cloned card has a chip, surely.

Jim.

In message , Jim Ley writes

My understanding is that combined cards are not as you describe but are (chip+pin) + (chip+mag-strip)

So the pin for the magstripe will be different?

Jim.

Not necessary to clone the card. The criminal discovers the pin and later arranges for the card to be stolen. Then when the card is used fraudulently, using the PIN, the banks will claim that the customer is not telling the truth and that either the customer is making the transactions but claiming the card to have been stolen or has disclosed the PIN. Just remember the case a while ago of a police officer who suffered from a phantom cash machine withdrawl and the banks claimed that it could not happen and he was charged (and IIRC found guilty) with fraud. I can imagine similar claims from the bank when stolen chip&pin cards are used fraudulently.

Thanks for that. I wonder how many were convenient ways of claiming it had happened and trying to get a refund from the bank?

They would need to be pretty sure they were not on CCTV, or else they would need to get a friend to act the part of the knifeman, but this could in itself entail the risk of the friend being arrested!

I'll remember never to visit Glasgow then - thanks for the tip!

"Jim Ley" wrote

Surely the system should be set up so that the mag-stripe also has a flag to say "this card should have a chip" (or not) ... ?

Then, if the cloned card has no chip (but the same, cloned, mag-stripe) - then the machine should refuse it, on the grounds that the mag-stripe says that there is a chip but there is not ...

In message , Jim Ley writes

My typo, sorry. What I meant was (chip+pin) + (mag strip + pin).

In answer to your question, NO.

In message , Graham Murray writes

Nobody is saying that C&P is not unbeatable, just that it reduces losses due to fraud dramatically. The circumstances you describe are possible now, but represent only a tiny proportion of card fraud, the remainder are mostly cloned cards.

Stories such as the one you describe are mostly apocryphal or there is a lot more to the story than you describe.

A friend of mine was mugged a couple of years ago on the canalside near Southall by a gang of five Somali youths.

They took his wallet and his mobile phone and demanded his pin number. Of course he gave them a fake one, two of them ran off to the cash machine on the high street while the other three stood over him. Within minutes one of the cash machine pair ran back to report that the number was fake. They kicked him about some more, breaking two ribs in the process, until he gave them the correct number.

When he reported this to the police, they told him that there had been a spate of these robberies and they were desperate to catch the gang. They had already pulled this trick on at least four other people walking along the same path. Eventually they busted the guys some months later after sending undercover cops down there as bait.

Stewart Gardiner

Good point - I hadn't considered the possibility of reporting the theft of my credit card to the police and credit card companies.

What do you think would happen first - me finding a phone, getting the right number and having my card(s) stopped, or one of my cards being used to remove money from the machine? My question addresses precisely this point.

Chip and pin wasn't rolled out two years ago, so how is that relevant to my question?

Wrong - there are many systems which could be used to prevent this. Fake pin numbers could be used to alert the police or the manager of the bank the machine is connected to (to get better ID of the criminal), or to make a note of the serial numbers of the notes being removed from the machine. More data than just a 4 digit pin number being required - possibly triggered by a panic button or alternative pin number, or that alternate pin number eating your card for your own protection.

I know all about chip and pin as I work in the industry. It's be designed to save the banks money as they're finally beginning to lose enough to make it worth the millions they're having to spend to roll it out. But I'm not concerned when the banks lose money - only when I lose money. If the banks are now more protected but I'm less protected then from the customer's point of view we're worse off than before.

You'll be able to change the "chip and pin" pin number, and I believe you're currently able to change the magstripe one. Couldn't tell you if they'll be linked in any way. One criticism of chip and pin is that because you'll have to know your credit card's pin number (whereas currently you don't if you only ever use it online or in shops) you're more likely to use it to withdraw cash from cashpoints, and therefore be subject to the ridiculous and unjustifiable withdrawal charges from your bank. It's a pretty poor criticism (ie: just don't do it) but it WILL happen!

Yes - that the banks are good natured is well documented.

You ARE - or at least will be - forced to use chip and pin, as no sane retailer is going to want to bear the costs of fraud.

Chip and pin will apply to debit as well as credit cards. You're saying you don't want the ability to get money out of a cashpoint machine or cashback in a supermarket?

Interstingly, I have several times told my bank I want a limit of £100 a week from a cashpoint machine and every so often they put it back to £250, or £100 a day or something. I can't prove I've asked them to reduce the limit as it's always been done over the phone (I think), and it would be interesting to see if the bank will cover any losses over my requested limit should I ever be a victim of this sort of crime.

It's a shame that I cannot request a higher level of security. I have a good memory (and anyway, it's not hard to come up with questions which I could be asked at a cashpoint to which only I would know the answer without having to learn new numbers - pets or distant relatives names, for instance).