Chip and Pin - More secure for who?

Good point! Have you tried asking your bank? It would be interesting to hear their reply.

"Fred Bloggs" wrote

Why not just give the *wrong* pin?!

So you get mugged and forced to divulge PIN. The muggers walk off and use your card, in meantime you call bank and police. Card is blocked. Your point being?

And lets face it - this simply does not happen regularly enough to be a genuine concern! Or to be precise, according to my card services division, there have been TWO such incidences in the past two years. No technology will stop this form of aggravated assault - the Chip and PIN system has been devised to combat card skimming/cloning - it is not the be-all and end-all solution to financial crime!!

MC

Not sure, wouldn't it be /they/ using the card fraudulently? They'd have to be quick.

As for being better off with the old system, potentially every time you use your card somebody could be swiping it, that's what causes the majority of problems. The chances of fraud arising from muggings is probably quite small by comparison, I sure they've looked into the figures regarding cash point cards and worked this out.

Of course the consequence of making posh cars practically unstealable fuelled car-jacking, some gangs have already started targeting bank lobby's etc.

Az.

No, but it's not exactly a new problem - pins have been around for 30+ years since cashpoints were invented. I'd imagine muggers who got hold of a card with its pin are far more likely to take cash out of a cash machine than use it to do their monthly shop at Tesco's.

The only time I can see being asked for a PIN by a mugger would be when they frog march you at knifepoint to a cash machine and demand the PIN there and then. I doubt any mugger would be enough of a "mug" to expect to be given the correct PIN "on trust" !

Sure they would, and then use their loyalty card to get their "Points"

DG

Better still would be a "duress" pin, as used by some alarm systems. Access will be allowed, but the authorities alerted. Probably a bit too much trouble for credit/debit cards, though.

"Adrian Boliston" wrote

Most cash machines appear to be in very "public" places - eg High Streets etc. Would many muggers really take the risk of producing a knife in a situation like that?

Of course then Tesco might get suspicious of someone who kept buying carving knives, balaclavas and womens stockings - along with 100 cashback!

In any case C&P terminals aren't secure; it's easy to see what people are keying.

Sadly yes. In Glasgow it is all too common to be standing at the cash point on a busy street in broad daylight and hear the dreaded phrase "don't turn round just take out another ton."

And the literature gives no clues as how the card holder is supposed to recognise the difference between a genuine C&P terminal and a 'dummy' which has been set up to record the PIN. If a dishonest retailer (or employee) can copy the magnetic strip and clone a card tendered for payment and criminals can put a false card slot on bank cash machines, then I am sure it not beyond their ability to create a Chip and Pin terminal which records the PIN, and working in league with pick pockets later steal the card.

And again I stress, how common do you think that form of crime really is?!!

Prevention of armed assault with the intent of obtaining the PIN, in order to force the user to withdraw cash to give to said assailant is, thankfully, not what Chip&Pin is about, and also is a rare crime.

how often have you heard of this actually happening? As I said before, Barclays card services have encountered TWO incidences in TWO years - hardly a common crime. compared to (If I recall correctly) somewhere in the region of 6000 cloned cards being in circulation at any one time it pales into insignificance!

Get real!

MC

I normally transfer money to my current account (from my high interest savings) as required (to keep within my 500 interest free o/d limit). If I'm planning to draw 20 I will transfer 20 prior to going to the cash machine, so I would need to ask the knifeman if I could borrow his GPRS enabled laptop so I can do that transfer!

How do you propose cloning a Chip? I would love you to explain how that is possible without the original chip?!

Chip and Pin will not prevent the "lebanese loop/pickpocket" scam.

C&P is not designed to eliminate all card crime, but should make cloning a crime of the past!

MC

And your evidence for this is? Or is it just another urban myth?

In message , Daytona writes

Not as easy as learning to copy a signature and very very hard to clone.

The banks seem toi be going to great lenghts to specifically make the point that cloning is almost impossible with current technology.

Everyone was better under the old system.

I agree with you that we will see an increase in violent muggings. As usual the weaker people of society such as the old and women will be more at risk.

You only have to look at some of the feeble number pads located in shops to see many of them are not secure. My partner works in a shop and everyday someone says their pin number out loud when paying for goods by card. A lot of people go searching in their bag for the number.

Yes I know people have had debit cards with numbers for a while, but people are now expected to know more than one number (yes I know you can change it, but I am referring to people who really don't have a clue). When people are at a cash point they have their backs to people, in the shops people can look from all angles. I know that everyone on this newsgroup would cover their typing hand and look around to make sure no one is watching, but I am not on about us.

You only generally hear about violent muggings with the mugger taking the victim to the cash point late in the evening/early morning, but I believe you will hear a lot about this and about people being watched typing their number in a shop and then being mugged and their credit card being used before it is stopped and the banks will turn round and say that the victim has been negligent with their pin number and they will have to pay for the muggers transactions. There will be nothing the victim can do.

In this instance it is probably best that you don't have more than one card on you and if you do they are different pin number. Imagine if you have 3 cards on you with 10k limits you could be liable for 30k. You might say that if you have been mugged then you will know to report the cards stolen immediately. What if you were pickpocketed and didn't realise the cards were missing for a considerable time.

The banks have never cared about card fraud, they make so much from credit cards they can afford it. I believe the banks real reason for wanting us to know our pin numbers is so we can take money out on our credit cards at such extortionate interest rates. I once made the mistake of putting my credit card into the ATM instead of my debit card.

If I am forced to use chip and pin, I want a card that doesn't allow cash advances and I would also like daily credit limit of say 200 that this new chip and pin technology should be able to stop me from over spending this limit and my full credit limit. Will this happen, will it heck, this new chip and pin technology works only one way and that is to the advantage of the banks.

I have many cards and don't know any of my pin numbers, I bin the pin number slips without opening them. I refuse to remember these numbers along with all the other crap I have to remember. I know eventually I will have to know and use them but I refuse to do this until the majority of the population know and use their numbers, at which point it should make me less of a target.

I expect to read the issues raised above about others, not be the victim of them myself.