Disputed ATM transaction

In article , GSV Three Minds in a Can writes

Freudian slip, if only :-)

Mike

In message , GSV Three Minds in a Can writes

Almost certainly, the trader would be displaying signs indicating that certain credit cards were welcome. If you reported them for refusing to accept a valid card, the CC people would not be too happy to hear this.

Of course, they can refuse to sell you anything, regardless of how (and how much) you were willing to pay. However, if you had just filled up with petrol, they wouldn't have much option.

GSV Three Minds in a Can posted

How do you mean, "cannot"? If they choose not to issue you with a chip and sig card, there is nothing you can do to make them ... unless you know otherwise? I've tried and failed, BTW.

As I understand it, there were two systems of 'chip and pin' available. Both were thought to be fraud-proof. The banks went for the cheaper version. It was then discovered that this system was not infallible and the cards could be used fraudulently. It seems, however, that the banks still maintain that the system is fraud-proof and so in some cases will not concede nor repay amounts stolen.

I cannot remember where I saw or read this, so cannot back this up. Sorry.

Iain

Most shops are a lot more aware of chip&signature cards these days. Including PC World. When I first got one I used to regularly have arguements with the store staff about it being a valid method of payment (I was mystery shopping them so I had to complete the purchase :-) ). I always put it on the report, then all of a sudden the staff all seem to know how to handle one.

Ditto most shops, they`re past the paranoid stage and will happily follow the instructions on their machine.

I don't know for certain, but I'd imagine most do. These are heavy duty machines designed to last for a long time.

Amex give out Chip & Sig cards if you ask them without asking for any medical condition - I have one in my sticky little paw to prove it.

Trouble is smaller shops won't take it.

toadwarble posted

I had an Amex account for years, they stayed with sigs longer than the other CCCs. But eventually they went over to chip and pin. I tried loads of times to get my sig card back, and they always politely said they would, but it never happened.

Bull. Being American, I have a stripe & sig card - no trace of a chip. Causes problems with automatic checkouts etc., but it always works when they come and swipe it through manually. The one place I have a big problem is with self-service gas stations; it works every time in the USA, but never works in the UK, I always have to pay at the counter.

Mike

Possibly I was lucky and got mine at a time when they were desperate for people to have cards unlike now.

We'll see next month when my existing card runs out.

I've got a bizarre credit limit which I never asked for of £17,900 so I can't see them not wanting to trim that.

It would be a bit better if PINs were longer and they did the thing which the Internet banking system my bank has where you have to give digits 2 3 and 6 or whatever (a different selection each time) of the number.

And I don't use the Internet banking with someone breathing down my neck like at cash machines (not that I've used one since 1994 when I heard about John Munden at a talk given by now-Prof Ross Anderson) or PIN terminals.

No, but 'stress and anxiety' can be.

At 17:46:23 on 26/03/2009, GSV Three Minds in a Can delighted uk.finance by announcing:

Yes it will. It still has an online PIN facility.

You may wish to start here:

Theo

Bitstring , from the wonderful person Big Les Wade said

If they choose not to issue you with a card at all that is one thing. If they won't swap your chip & pin card to chip & sig they are breaking the law. I have now successfully explained this to Amex, Capital One, and Morgan Stanley (now Barclaycard).

I believe that is the most common reason for "phantom" withdrawals.

Could be.

Not likely, see below.

I've worked on the periphery of some bank's ATM systems and I've always been told that a computer error creating a phantom withdrawal is highly unlikely for those systems[1]. The software they use is relatively simple, is rigorously tested and has several checks and balances. That's not to say it couldn't happen but I'd go with the following as the possible alternatives in decreasing order of likelihood :

1) The customer's card was used by somebody the customer trusts who turns out not to be all that trustworthy 2) The card was cloned and the pin discovered by fraudulent means 3) The transaction was fraudulently generated by a bank employee 4) There was a computer error

It was certainly the case in the past that all ATMs had a paper "till-roll" that documented all withdrawals. If that is still the case and the bank has checked that record and found matching details of the withdrawal that will pretty much rule out options 3 and 4

Cheers,

John

[1] Duplicate or undocumented withdrawals are a different matter

Google Ross Anderson & contact him: he's a Cambridge academic who's an expert in cryptography and computer security and has thoroughly analysed ATM and chip+pin fraud.

I acquired an Amex card fairly recently - a couple of years ago - and out of all the places I have used it the only place I had trouble surprisingly was Copenhagen airport. The cashier did not think I could use a pin with it, but luckily I was able to convince them otherwise.

When I lived in Australia many years ago I had an eftpos card with Commenwealth Bank that I was able to assign a 12-digit pin number to. Just for fun I decided to try and withdraw some cash back in blighty to see if it would accept it, and lo and behold it did (using Cirrus).

That is interesting to know. Could you please provide a citation I can use to help convince my card issuers?