Chip and Pin - no more signatures

I don't generally. I check my monthly statements fairly thoroughly though. When buying groceries I watch the till, that's usually well lit, fairly large and a long way away so I can see it OK. It's similar at many petrol stations though I must admit I can't always check the amount there. However it would be pretty easy to dispute later, you can't get that much petrol in a motorbike.

Usually by looking at the total on the till which is bigger, further away and better lit.

Maybe I am missing the point here but...

Why can't people who don't want to use Chip+PIN use cash or cheques?

Perhaps because large amounts of cash aren't a good idea to have on one's person, and shops are starting to refuse cheques (my wife hit this recently in a local high st store, forget which).

Oh, and with a credit card, you get extra protection if the purchase goes pear-shaped.

Besides: net benefit to cardholder of chip&pin - nil net potential costs to cardholder (fraud) - large net benefit to bank of chip&pin - huge

You figure.

And how do you know that the till shows the same amount that the PIN-pad shows, which is what you're approving?

At 10:30:34 on 11/10/2005, snipped-for-privacy@isbd.co.uk delighted uk.finance by announcing:

And what's the problem with looking at it before entering a PIN?

At 10:29:18 on 11/10/2005, snipped-for-privacy@isbd.co.uk delighted uk.finance by announcing:

Voila!

"Tiddy Ogg" wrote

*Your* argument is that the pin pads are part of their system (controlled by them, not you) and they are demonstrably *not* "foolproof" -- eg shoulder-surfing, dodgy sales assistant modifying the box, etc etc.

"Tiddy Ogg" wrote

*Your* argument is that for every 3333 cards attempted to be used fraudulently, *one* would be accepted simply at random (three tries to guess 9999 possibilities on each) -- you are simply that "one"!

??? So are you agreeing that a Chip+Sig makes sense for me or not?

"Mike Scott" wrote

No payment system is, or can ever be, "perfect". You're just pointing out that cash has its advantages & disadvantages, just like C+P has its advantages & disadvantages. Just pick whichever payment system you are happiest with, or don't spend at all!

"Mike Scott" wrote

If you want that protection, then you can put up with the C+P !!

"Mike Scott" wrote

Proof?

"Mike Scott" wrote

Not new, but the risk of it happening maybe higher with C+Sig?

As certainly as anything in this world! They're both driven by the same box of electronics, it's not as if the cashier rekeys the amount.

For that matter how do you know that the amount appearing on the PIN pad screen is the amount you are actually going to get debited?

Nothing at all, the problem is that I can't see the **!!@@ numbers on the PIN pad, that's why I originally said that a Chip+Sig card would be much easier for me to use.

So, you're happy that you don't need to see the pin-pad screen...

wrote

Presumably you mean the numbers on the individual keys. That's not a problem either - they are always in the same order! [They never shuffle the digits around the different keys on different pin-pads.]

At 12:52:44 on 11/10/2005, snipped-for-privacy@isbd.co.uk delighted uk.finance by announcing:

I'm wondering why you can see the till display when signing but not when entering a PIN.

At 12:55:57 on 11/10/2005, snipped-for-privacy@isbd.co.uk delighted uk.finance by announcing:

But you can see the smaller numbers on a receipt?

And there is a raised dot on the '5' key which enables even the totally blind to orient themselves on the pad.

I see no benefit from chip and pin. In fact I'm carrying on with a chip&sig card, with no loss to myself.

There has been at least one demo of how to draw cash using the data from someone else's C&P card; if nothing else, the cardholder could have his pin snooped, then be mugged for the card (cost of ownership rising....) and then have the bank say "their systems are secure" (it seems they've already done this with the old strip cards; I doubt their behaviour will change).

The banks have said themselves they will save much money with the scheme; they're not (totally) stupid.

And if that's not enough, then proof by blatant assertion. If it's good enough for Blair........

snipped-for-privacy@isbd.co.uk wrote: ...

You don't. But if there's a piece of paper with the amount and my signature, that's much more robust against trickery than a few electrons flying who knows where.